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How to Heat Treat MagnaMax Steel

By: Larrin
30 April 2026 at 17:37

Wide Release Date for MagnaMax for Small Knifemakers

MagnaMax will be on sale May 1st, 2026 at 9am on Niagara Specialty Metals’ online store: https://nsm-ny.com/shop/

You can create an account beforehand so that you are ready to buy once the steel goes live. We made the following commercial to get pumped for the release:

Intro

I wrote an article (and created a video) about MagnaMax properties a few months ago. So I won’t be rehashing all of the properties here. Basically, MagnaMax is designed to have enhanced wear resistance and edge retention vs MagnaCut with similar corrosion resistance and hardness potential.

You will also see in the chart above that MagnaMax offers superior toughness and edge retention to the popular M390 and 20CV. It is very difficult to improve both of these properties at the same time, so this is a big improvement. It also maintains similar toughness to grades CPM-154, S35VN, and Vanax, which were formerly the toughest PM stainless steels prior to MagnaCut. So it offers a significant edge retention improvement to those grades, which have had a reputation for good properties in the past.

That property summary article did not have specific heat treatment recommendations because I was waiting on the final material. The initial heat of steel had carbon on the low end of the specification, so it wasn’t as representative of the average material as I wanted. No change was made to the target composition or the specification, it just landed at the lower end for carbon. So now that I have received and tested material closer to the midpoint of the specification I performed a more comprehensive set of tests. Knifemaker Matthew Gregory helped to make the majority of the toughness coupons.

High Level Heat Treatment Summary

Before we get into all of the details I can give a simple summary so you don’t get lost.

With Cryo:

Austenitize 2100-2250°F (1150-1230°C). The baseline temperature for good properties is 2150°F (1175°C).

Plate quench for faster cooling and slightly higher hardness.

After cooling to approximately room temperature, place immediately in liquid nitrogen. The amount of time it sits in the liquid nitrogen doesn’t matter that much, it just needs to reach the temperature. An hour is fine. What does matter is not wasting time before putting it in the liquid nitrogen. You don’t need to check the hardness beforehand.

Temper 300-450°F (150-230°C) twice for two hours each time. 350°F (175°C) is a baseline temperature for good properties.

Without Cryo:

Use your household freezer. It is a myth that it doesn’t have any effect. There is no reason to do no cold treatment. Everybody has or can get a freezer. Dry ice is even better, but despite being about 100°F colder than a freezer often behaves closer to a freezer than to liquid nitrogen.

Austenitize 2050-2100°F (1120-1150°C). 2100°F (1150°C) is a good temperature. It might be possible to go somewhat higher but I worry about excess retained austenite.

Plate quench for faster cooling and slightly higher hardness.

After cooling to approximately room temperature, place immediately in the freezer or dry ice. The amount of time it sits in the freezer doesn’t matter that much, it just needs to reach the temperature. An hour is fine. What does matter is not wasting time before putting it in the freezer. You don’t need to check the hardness beforehand.

Temper 300-450°F (150-230°C) twice for two hours each time. 350°F (175°C) is a baseline temperature for good properties.

Austenitizing hold times:

The required hold time changes with temperature. This is the soak time required after the piece reaches the temperature. It rarely hurts to add extra minutes, it is more common to have an issue with undersoaking.

2050°F (1120°C): 20 minutes

2100°F (1150°C): 15 minutes

2150°F (1175°C): 10 minutes

2200°F (1205°C): 5 minutes

2250°F (1230°C): 5 minutes

Hardness and Cryo

I first made a series of coupons to test the hardening response, including with the addition of a freezer or liquid nitrogen treatment after quenching. I used the soak times in the section above.

You can see that with no cold treatment the peak hardness was 2050°F (1120°C) after tempering at 300°F (150°C). Hardness drops with higher temperatures from excess retained austenite. Hardness rose when using liquid nitrogen all the way to 2250°F (1230°C). It would be unlikely to keep rising much beyond this temperature and the possibility of melting grain boundaries starts to become more of a danger. The freezer also rose all the way up to 2250°F but to a lesser extent. Because the increase was small beyond 2100°F (1150°C) this is why I limited my recommendation for the freezer to that temperature. That makes me think both the retained austenite and hardness of the martensite were increasing beyond that temperature, leading to relatively flat behavior. Excess retained austenite can lead to worse sharpening behavior when deburring. Overall this hardening response is not radically different than MagnaCut.

Nothing too crazy showed up in the tempering. You can see that a cold treatment leads to less hardness loss in tempering. Compare 2050°F with and without a cold treatment, or 2100°F with liquid nitrogen vs the freezer. Note that I have a single curve for both freezer or liquid nitrogen from 2050°F, and this was because the two were sufficiently similar to have a single line. Plus don’t want to make the chart too busy.

You will also notice that the hardness reaches an initial minimum at 600°F (315°C) and then rose to a secondary peak around 900°F (480°C). This is known as “secondary hardening.” I don’t recommend tempering in that range, especially with stainless steels, because it reduces corrosion resistance. For example see two Vanax coupons below, both sprayed with 1% saltwater. The one of the left was tempered at 400°F (200°C) and the one on the right was tempered at 1000°F (540°C).

Toughness

We also tested a series of charpy toughness coupons for this heat of MagnaMax. I used my standard coupon which is quarter size (2.5 x 10 mm) and unnotched. Three coupons were tested for each condition. We used liquid nitrogen in the heat treatment of all of these coupons directly after the quench. We used austenitizing temperatures of 2000-2250°F (1095-1230°C) and tempering temperatures of 300, 350, and 450°F (150, 175, 230°C).

The hardness was slightly lower than the small hardness coupons I showed results from before:

Looking at the resulting toughness, it rose from 2000 to 2050°F (1095 to 1120°C), was relatively flat up to 2200°F (1205°C), and then dropped somewhat up to 2250°F (1230°C). This is why I recommended a baseline austenitizing temperature of 2150°F (1175°C) as this appears to be roughly the peak hardness-toughness, though an argument could also be made for 2200°F (1205°C), in part due to a couple of the 2150°F results being on the low end and a couple of the 2200°F being on the high end. This is likely due to statistical variability of testing.

You can also see that toughness increases with tempering temperature as we would expect, which also corresponds to a hardness decrease. Lower hardness generally correlates with higher toughness.

There was a greater increase in toughness between 300 and 350°F (150-175°C) than between 350 and 450°F (175-230°C), which is why I recommended 350°F (175°C) as the baseline tempering temperature.

Hardness-Toughness Balance

But what we would like to maximize is the highest toughness for a given hardness. So I plotted hardness vs toughness below.

You will notice that the maximum hardness-toughness combinations were generally 2150-2200°F (1175-1230°C) and tempering at 350-450°F (175-230°C). The exceptions include: 1) 2100°F (1150°C) with 450°F (230°C) because that combination gave the best properties for lower hardness. And 2) For maximum hardness you need 2150-2250°F (1175-1230°C) in combination with the minimum tempering temperature of 300°F (150°C). I next overlaid those best heat treatment conditions on top of the similar non-stainless steels K390, Vanadis 8, and CPM-10V:

Erasteel MM#1 is the first heat that was shown in the prior article about MagnaMax properties, and Erasteel MM#2 is the final tested material above. You can see that both have a similar hardness-toughness balance, though the new one is skewed to somewhat higher hardness, as expected from more carbon. You will also see that the toughness is very similar to K390 and Vanadis 8, an excellent result given that MagnaMax is a stainless steel with similar wear resistance. So we greatly improved corrosion resistance over those steels while maintaining their other properties. I next plotted those hardness-toughness values vs other stainless powder metallurgy steels:

You can see that MagnaMax has superior hardness-toughness than virtually all of the powder metallurgy stainless steels apart from MagnaCut. This includes steels with a good reputation for toughness including Vanax, XHP, S35VN, and CPM-154. And below I have the more complete graph of stainless steels which is a bit busy:

Corrosion Resistance

I compared the final higher carbon version of corrosion resistance to the earlier and both passed the 1% saltwater corrosion test. Showing a picture of two clean samples isn’t very interesting, so here is the earlier image of MagnaMax vs other steels:

Each of those was austenitized from 2150°F (1175°C). MagnaMax (and MagnaCut) were designed for all of the chromium carbides to be dissolved around 2050°F (1120°C). After the chromium carbides are dissolved the corrosion resistance doesn’t appreciably change with even higher temperatures. This is different than most other stainless steels which have chromium carbides all the way up to the melting temperature. But using even higher than 2050°F does provide some factor of safety, better ensuring the chromium carbides are fully dissolved.

The other main factors for corrosion resistance are quench rate and tempering temperature. I mentioned in the tempering section that tempering above about 750°F (400°C) leads to a reduction in corrosion resistance and I showed a test with Vanax to illustrate that. Quenching isn’t an issue unless it is very slow, which leads to carbides precipitating on the grain boundaries which can reduce corrosion resistance.

Edge Retention

The primary factors for edge wear resistance are carbide volume, carbide hardness (controlled by type), and steel hardness. While the carbides are very important when comparing different steels, there is less of an impact within a given steel. It is true that austenitizing higher dissolves a bit more carbide but this effect is generally drowned out by the increase in hardness. So in general, achieving a higher hardness results in greater edge retention, and there isn’t much point in worrying about the exact austenitizing and tempering temperatures that were used to get there. I have the graph below of CATRA results I tested previously to show where MagnaMax lands and the effect of hardness on the results:

Summary and Conclusions

So I have shown the majority of the heat treatment data that I generated and my reasoning for the different recommendations. I am overall happy with how the heat treatment response ended up. If you want to see the simplified heat treatment recommendations, scroll back near the top where it said “High Level Heat Treatment Summary.” Hopefully that is simple enough for everyone. If not then ask questions in the comments. MagnaMax will be on sale May 1st, 2026 at 9am on Niagara Specialty Metals’ online store: https://nsm-ny.com/shop/

The post How to Heat Treat MagnaMax Steel appeared first on Knife Steel Nerds.

Pop’s ProCut – A New Carbon Steel for Knives

By: Larrin
4 June 2025 at 22:38

My steel research is supported through Patreon. Patreon supporters saw the news on Pop’s ProCut before anyone else. There is currently an article about the upcoming MagnaMax only available on Patreon.

Video

Here is a video version of the following information:

Development

In March 2024 Joey Berry of Pop’s Knife Supply called me and said he wanted to develop a new steel. He said that their most popular steel was 80CrV2 and so he wanted to make “80CrV3.” “You mean 80CrV2 but with a little more vanadium?” He said no but some kind of “sequel” to 80CrV2 that would be more exciting. I told him that doesn’t give me much to go off of but I would think about whether I had any good ideas along those lines. I thought about gaps in the market in the area of low alloy knife steels (“Carbon steel”) that would also be usable by the knifemaker that is buying 80CrV2. It occurred to me that our selection of high nickel steels is very limited; 15N20, L6, and 8670 are pretty much it. These steels are high in toughness and offer good hardness to go with it, but have no real wear resistance to speak of. 80CrV2 is in a similar position just without the nickel. I thought if we added some tungsten and vanadium to a high nickel steel we could make the steel more balanced; give it some wear resistance along with the high toughness. Those carbide pinning elements would mean that the steels are more beginner friendly for forge heat treating. 15N20, for example, already sees grain growth around 1500°F (815°C) and so its toughness drops very rapidly even when only slightly overheated. If the tungsten and vanadium were kept in check the forgeability, grindability, and polishability would remain high. This would also offer an alternative to other tungsten/vanadium steels like Blue #1, V-Toku2, Wolfram Special, 1.2519, and others. Those steels don’t have much toughness to speak of, so we could combine the best of the nickel steels with the best of the tungsten/vanadium steels. Another exciting element with the high nickel is the possibility to use the steel in pattern-welded Damascus as a “bright” layer. This gives an option for a higher wear resistance steel with better edge retention for that component of the Damascus. I told Joey about my idea and we decided to move forward with it.

We took the composition I came up with to a steel mill in Europe and they agreed to make it. I spent a bunch of time working on optimal annealing for the somewhat similar 15N20 based on the limitations of their production annealing process. Based on that we generated an annealing procedure to make the steel respond well to forge heat treating.

Composition and Tungsten/Vanadium Carbides

Here is the composition of Pop’s ProCut compared with other grades in its category. The far right column says “MC (%)” which is a calculation of how much total vanadium and tungsten carbide each steel contains after heat treating. One thing you will notice is that since tungsten is a heavy element it does not contribute as much to the MC as you might expect. For example, CruForgeV with 0.75% vanadium has more MC than Wolfram Special which has ~2.25% tungsten. ProCut uses a combination of vanadium and tungsten in a similar fashion to O7 and 1.2519 steels. So it has similar MC to steels like Blue #1, 1.2519/O7, and Wolfram Special, and more MC than Blue #2 and O1. The other nickel nickel steels (15N20, L6, and 8670) of course do not have any MC. These very hard carbides give the steel wear resistance.

Austenitizing, Tempering, and Hardness

A major goal for this grade was to be “easy” to heat treat with a forge. This requires a wide range of austenitizing temperature where full hardness is achieved while avoiding a toughness drop with higher temperatures. 80CrV2 steel varies a lot with starting microstructure, and two of the mills that make the steel lead to very different heat treating response:

So we wanted to avoid this issue that 80CrV2 sees. We did this by keeping the chromium low and also working with the manufacturer to dial in the annealing procedure so that carbides aren’t too coarse (making them difficult to dissolve). I also compared the austenitizing response with my recommended anneal (described later):

You can see that the hardness reaches its maximum around 1475°F and then does not change above that temperature. If using the anneal I recommend the microstructure is a bit finer and so this can be dropped even further to 1375°F. Thus for heat treating in a forge you can heat the steel to “a shade brighter” after reaching nonmagnetic and the steel will fully harden. If you forge and follow the recommending normalizing and annealing procedure you can even quench from nonmagnetic if you wish.

If the steel is austenitized in that range (1475°F or higher) the tempering is roughly the same regardless of the austenitizing temperature. Here are datapoints for both 1550°F and 1625°F:

You can see that the hardness is relatively high, still 64 Rc after tempering at 300°F, which is generally as low as I recommend for tempering most any steel. With a 450°F temper the steel is still above 60 Rc.

Toughness

Austenitizing

In our heat treating and toughness experiments we found three different regions of toughness behavior:

Below 1500°F, the steel shows an increase in toughness with increasing temperature. From 1500-1575°F the toughness is roughly flat. 1625°F and above shows a big jump in toughness where it is flat again up to at least 1675°F. The reason for this behavior we figured out by looking at the microstructure. These images were taken by knifemaker Shawn Houston of Triple B Knives:

1425°F, 400°F temper

1475°F, 400°F temper

1600°F, 400°F temper

You can see that the carbide content is significantly reduced by austenitizing at 1475°F as opposed to 1425°F. This significant change in cementite (iron carbide) raised toughness. Then when the temperature is further increased to 1600°F and above, virtually all of the cementite is gone and all that remains is the small volume of hard vanadium and tungsten carbides. The presence of these small carbides is what prevents grain growth even at high temperatures. The carbides “pin” the grain boundaries.

15N20 and L6, in contrast, show a drop in toughness at much lower temperatures because they do not have those carbides to pin grains. The steel 1.2519 does have the W/V carbides but it sees a drop in toughness above 1500°F because it gets excess carbon in solution, leading to plate martensite. The carbon content in ProCut is controlled so that the matrix carbon does not reach excessive levels even at high temperature. This gives ProCut a very wide austenitizing range.

Tempering and Toughness

Like many other knife steels, ProCut sees a peak in toughness with a tempering temperature of around 450°F (230°C). Above that the toughness drops due to a phenomena called “tempered martensite embrittlement” which happens in all steels. There is lower toughness with tempering at lower temperatures as well, of course, corresponding with the higher hardness. The behavior of toughness with tempering temperature is roughly similar whether using the higher or lower austenitizing temperature range.

Hardness vs Toughness

This creates two different heat treating ranges, where the steel can be austenitized high (1625-1675°F) to max out toughness with some cost to wear resistance and edge retention, or austenitizing lower (1475-1575°F) to retain more carbide for wear resistance. The steel still maintains a toughness advantage vs previous tungsten/vanadium steels due to the nickel addition and controlled carbon content with the lower austenitizing range. However, with the high austenitizing range it achieves levels of toughness similar to 8670, 15N20, and L6 but with enhanced wear resistance due to the small tungsten and vanadium carbides.

To compare with other steels you can look at the following chart:

Grinding and Polishing

I don’t have a quantitative test for grindability. Reports from knifemakers so far say that grinding and polishing is very easy with the steel. Some low alloy steels developed for higher wear resistance like CruForgeV are more difficult to polish due to relatively large vanadium carbides that are found relatively frequently. This steel we controlled the W/V content to try to avoid large carbides. Because of the limitations of standard steelmaking (as opposed to powder metallurgy) there are still very occasional larger carbides but they are much rarer than a steel like CruForgeV. So far those few carbides don’t appear to be affecting polishing and finishing.

A lower magnification image of ProCut showing that large carbides aren’t observed most of the time

One of the rare large carbides in ProCut

A micrograph of CruForgeV showing large carbides. Notice there is a magnfication difference vs the ProCut images.

Quenching, Oil Selection, and Hamon

The “hardenability” of ProCut is relatively high, which I also found in testing of 15N20. The high nickel content gives it this hardenability. Air cooling from 1600°F with 1/8″ steel resulted in 60.7 Rc, though from lower temperatures like 1350°F the hardenability is lower (I measured 35.3 Rc). This means that ProCut can be quenched in virtually any quenching oil, even canola, and with relatively thick cross-sections.

This high hardenability means that ProCut is not well suited for developing a hamon. The best choices for a hamon are low hardenability steels like 1095, W2, and 26C3. I won’t say it is impossible to develop a hamon but there are better choices. It is likely still fine for other differential methods like an edge quench.

Forging, Thermal Cycling

Maximum forging temperatures are most greatly affected by the carbon content. High carbon steels are easier to overheat, leading to crumbling while forging. The carbon content of ProCut is limited to ~0.87% so this is not a huge factor with ProCut. For safety I put in the datasheet to limit forging to 2200°F (1200°C). Some knifemakers, especially Damascus makers, push the boundaries of forging temperatures and this can be dangerous. Like with other steels, if you continue to forge when the steel gets too cold this is also a danger in terms of cracking. I haven’t heard a lot of feedback in this area so let me know how the steel behaves for you. The high hardenability means that the steel can sometimes harden in air while cooling from the forging temperature. This can lead to cracking if there are stress risers in the blade.

The “thermal cycling” procedure for ProCut is relatively simple. Like with other steels I prefer to do a single normalize and anneal, so only two steps. I have written about this procedure in past articles. The normalizing step is for dissolving any undesirable carbides and other structures. For this steel it would be in the range of 1600-1650°F where the cementite is dissolved. With a furnace you can hold at this temperature for 10-15 minutes before air cooling. With a forge by eye you just need to heat somewhere into that range or a bit higher.

The annealing procedure is then done by heating to nonmagnetic and slow cooling. I recommend faster cooling rates than is typical for datasheets and this type of anneal is called a “Fast DET” anneal. For simple heat treatments you can slow cool either in a furnace or in an insulating media like vermiculite (available in the garden section of home improvement stores). I tried a range of cooling rates in my furnace. I held the steel for 30 minutes at 1350°F and slow cooled at different rates to measure the annealed hardness. At 50°F/hr cooling the resulting hardness was 23.9 Rc. After 500°F/hr the hardness was 24.5 Rc. I also tried setting the furnace to 1000°F/hr but it only maintained that cooling rate until about 1250°F and slowed from there, the average rate of cooling was about 680°F/hr. That resulted in 26.2 Rc, which is plenty soft enough. Shawn Houston did an anneal with 250°F/hr and he measured 21.2 Rc. Here is the microstructure after normalizing and annealing at 1350°F for 30 minutes, and cooling at 250°F/hr:

Normalized and “Fast DET” annealed microstructure of ProCut (21.2 Rc)

“As-received” annealed microstructure of ProCut (12 Rc)

You can see that the faster annealing procedure results in a finer microstructure which is why the austenitizing response was different (see the prior as-quenched hardness chart). The toughness was still relatively similar despite the very different starting microstructure (see the toughness vs austenitizing temperature chart). Those datapoints were generated using a 100°F/hr anneal which is what I recommended in the datasheet. Somewhat faster and slower cooling rates would have a similar result.

Use in Damascus

The high nickel content means that ProCut is a good replacement for 15N20 or L6 as a bright layer in pattern-welded Damascus. This gives an option for providing higher edge retention whereas 15N20 and L6 have almost no wear resistance apart from their hardness. An initial forging experiment with 1084 and ProCut resulted in excellent contrast:

Edge Retention

Pop’s ProCut did surprisingly well in the CATRA test. The heat treatments performed were 1650°F with a 450°F temper (61.2 Rc), and 1500°F with a 300°F temper (64 Rc). As I have written about before, CATRA is not the best for low alloy steels because the sand particles in the test media are harder than cementite (iron carbides). Even with different media they wouldn’t be at the top of the chart but they would be a bit better. It could be that the relatively low amount of cementite in ProCut helped for the CATRA test. But even if that were the case if we compare with another steel with low cementite content like 8670 or 1095, there was a significant boost to edge retention through the tungsten and vanadium additions. Perhaps with the lower carbon compared with other W/V steels meant that there was less of tungsten and vanadium found in the cementite, allowing them to form more of the hard WC and VC carbides.

Toughness-Edge Retention Balance

With the high toughness plus the unexpectedly good CATRA numbers the ProCut looks very good compared with other low alloy steel options:

Corrosion Resistance

This is a non-stainless steel and should not be expected to be stainless. People say that the 2% nickel in 15N20 gives it somewhat better corrosion resistance than carbon steels but I have not developed a test for comparing corrosion resistance of low alloy steels.

Cryo

There is a certain lore out there with knifemakers claiming that some steels “need” cryo and other steels “don’t benefit” from cryo. Part of this lore is that low alloy and carbon steels are in the “don’t benefit” category. Simple carbon steels and low alloy steels still see an increase in hardness with cryo, typically 0.5-2 Rc depending on the steel and the heat treatment. There is a small cost to toughness because of the increase in hardness. ProCut is the same. As an example of another low alloy steel we experimented with see 52100. I did experiments from 1500°F and 1650°F and found, as expected, that hardness increased. The higher temperature led to a bigger bump from cyro which is also typical. None of the edge retention or toughness tests I showed in the article so far used cryo in any of the heat treatments. But if you want even higher hardness for edge retention and strength you can add a cryo step after quenching.

Comparisons to Other Steels

1084 and 15N20

These steels are relatively “easy” to heat treat in that you can heat them up and quench them and get full hardness. However, they are very easy to overheat leading to grain growth and a drop in toughness. They also have almost no carbide thus having very little wear resistance.

80CrV2

This steel is also lacking in wear resistance though overheating is not much of an issue because of the vanadium addition. It also varies a lot between manufacturers and needs more temperature prior to quenching making it more difficult to perform a forge heat treatment.

52100

In the lower austenitizing range (for higher wear resistance), ProCut compares favorably with 52100 in terms of properties. 52100 has a very good combination of toughness and wear resistance. ProCut is easier to heat treat for an amateur knifemaker and also has the option of the high toughness heat treatment.

O1 and 1095

These are old standard steels. O1 has the benefit of being “oil hardening” so it is easier to quench. I have found both to be very sensitive to overheating because of excess carbon in solution. See my article on O1.

5160, 8670, and L6

These steels have significant chromium additions so they are more difficult to heat treat in a forge. They also don’t have any carbide left over after heat treating and thus their wear resistance is very low.

Blue #2, Wolfram Special, 1.2519

These steels have similar wear resistance for edge retention but significantly lower toughness and do not have the benefits of being beginner friendly.

ApexUltra

This is another low alloy steel I helped develop. It has significantly higher wear resistance and attainable hardness than ProCut, which also means lower toughness. I would recommend ApexUltra for those looking for maximum performance in the “carbon steel” category. Though I wouldn’t call it a difficult steel, it is best for makers that have a bit of experience first.

Heat Treatment Recommendations

In a Forge

Heat to “one shade brighter” after reaching nonmagnetic, quench in oil (most types are fine), and temper twice for one hour each time at 300-450°F (150-230°C) to desired hardness.

In a Furnace

Maximum toughness: 1650°F (900°C) for 10-15 minutes.

Higher edge retention: 1500°F (815°C) for 10-15 minutes

Quench in oil (most types are fine), and temper twice for one hour each time at 300-450°F (150-230°C) to desired hardness.

Thermal Cycling after Forging

1625-1675°F for 10-15 minutes, air cool. Without a controlled furnace, heat into that rough range and establish an even temperature distribution prior to cooling.

1350°F for 30 minutes, cool at 100°F/hr to 1100°F. After that it can be cooled more rapidly. Without a controlled furnace, heat to nonmagnetic and slow cool such as in vermiculite.

Summary and Conclusions

I am happy with how Pop’s ProCut turned out. It offers good balanced performance when compared with other low alloy non-stainless steels. Better edge retention than 1095, O1, 80CrV2, L6, 15N20, etc. And depending on the heat treatment its toughness approaches 8670, 15N20, and 5160. And on top of this it is beginner friendly, being easy to heat treat, grind, and finish.

The post Pop’s ProCut – A New Carbon Steel for Knives appeared first on Knife Steel Nerds.

Factory vs Custom Heat Treating of Knives

By: Larrin
24 March 2025 at 14:24

Patreon

Thank you Patreon supporters! Thanks to you we can do all the experiments that are in this article. If you want to support knife steel research come join us at Patreon.com/KnifeSteelNerds.

Video

Here is the video version of the following information:

Heat Treating Steps and Equipment Types

There are three major steps of heat treating performed by a custom knifemaker or a factory, and an optional fourth:

  1. Austenitizing – heating the steel up hot and soaking
  2. Quenching – Rapidly cooling the steel
  3. Tempering – reheating the steel to a lower temperature such as 400°F (200°C) for 1-2 hours. This is typically performed 2-3 times (cooled to room temperature in between).
  4. Cryogenic or cold processing is an optional step that can be performed after the quench or in between tempering steps. It involves cooling the steel to as low a temperature as possible.

Fundamentally these steps can be performed with a wide range of equipment, and that equipment can have an effect on the results. Below I have written about some of the basic equipment setups.

Austenitizing

The austenitizing step is performed somewhere between 1450 and 2250°F (785-1230°C), so this is not happening in a kitchen oven. The biggest difference between small batch heat treating done by an individual knifemaker and a factory is the size of the furnace. Knifemakers will use a benchtop unit such as those made by EvenHeat or Paragon. Therefore the number of knives that are in the furnace at once is much greater in a factory furnace. There are pros and cons to both situations apart from just the number of knives that are heat treated at once. A furnace is not perfectly evenly heated, it is going to be slightly colder at the door, for example, and there will be some thermal “gradient” and relatively hot and cold spots. Typically there is a “control” thermocouple that measures the temperature and the furnace is constantly adjusting to hit the target temperature. If you are heat treating one knife at a time that is directly next to the thermocouple you can be sure the temperature the knife sees is very close to what the thermocouple is measuring. With a loaded up furnace there will be some variation in temperature. That could be only a few degrees or in extreme situations there could be a 20-30°F+ difference between blades in the center of a furnace vs the “corners.”

Custom knifemakers do not always use furnaces. It is relatively common for knifemakers to use a forge which is relatively uncontrolled and the goal is to pull the blade after it is heated into the right range. Some knifemakers will try to hold a specific temperature within the forge or improve the uniformity of the forge by using a “baffle,” also called a “muffle.” This can be as simple as a large piece of pipe. And less common, though still done by some, is to use a torch to heat the edge or the entire blade. Again, this is relatively uncontrolled compared with a furnace.

Quenching

Quenching also varies quite a bit. Steels are rated by “hardenability” in terms of how fast they need to be quenched. The general categories are “air hardening,” “oil hardening,” and “water hardening.” An air hardening steel can be quenched with pressurized gas or even just in still air. Oil hardening knives are quenched in oil, and water hardening steels are quenched in water. Factory knives tend to use air hardening steels, in part because they are better suited to large batch heat treating, and in part because all stainless steels are air hardening. With custom knives, “plate quenching” has become popular in the past couple decades. Plate quenching involves placing the steel between two plates (usually aluminum) and the plates draw heat out of the blade. This is faster than sitting in air and also helps maintain flatness during quenching. The most common quenching method for factories is a pressurized nitrogen gas quench. The pressure of the gas is typically rated in “bars” where a “1 bar” quench would be atmospheric pressure, and 2 bars would be double atmospheric pressure. The higher the pressure, the faster the quench. However, this is not the only factor that matters. How “loaded up” the furnace is will also dictate the quench rate. If many blades are stacked with each other, that increases the volume of each and thus it takes longer to cool it down. You can easily imagine how a 4 inch thick block of steel takes longer to cool than a 1/8″ thick blade. And if a relatively small number of blades are in the furnace, and they are well separated, that will mean a faster quench rate even with the same pressure quench. The heat treaters usually want to load up the furnace as much as possible for efficiency. Here is a random YouTube video that shows vacuum furnaces:

Slower quenching means that hardness and toughness is reduced. Below shows a published study [1] on M2 high speed steel tested with 2 bar, 6 bar, and 9 bar quenching in a vacuum furnace. They tested the hardness and also toughness with a bend fracture test. With higher quench pressure, both properties were improved. With slow cooling, carbides are precipitated at the grain boundaries. This depletes carbon from the matrix, reducing hardness. And those precipitated carbides are brittle and reduce toughness, especially since they are present on grain boundaries.

Data adapted from [1]

In a study on Uddeholm Dievar tool steel [2] they compared toughness between air cooling and oil quenching. They found the same 48 Rc hardness with both conditions but the oil quenched steel had 25% better toughness. They took micrographs of both conditions, and you can see the grain boundaries in the air cooled steel. The dark grain boundaries are visible because of the carbides formed along those boundaries.

Image from [2]

Vacuum furnaces are not the only method used by production knife facilities but are by far the most common. One counterexample is Paul Bos heat treating, which is located at Buck Knives and also performs all of the heat treating for Buck. See the video below. They use a conveyer belt furnace and the steel comes out the other side and cools in air. This type of cooling is generally faster than a pressure quench in a vacuum furnace because of how much time it takes to cool down a fully loaded vacuum furnace.

Tempering

Tempering has similarities to austenitizing in that we are heating to some temperature and holding there. The main difference is that tempering is from a much lower temperature, typically in the range of 300-1050°F (150-565°C). This means that it can be performed in less specialized equipment. Many custom knifemakers will use a kitchen oven or toaster oven.

Cold or Cryogenic Processing

Cryo processing generally involves the use of liquid nitrogen. This can be simple, like dipping a knife into a liquid nitrogen Dewar, to fancier setups that spray liquid nitrogen, or cool down a refrigeration unit with liquid nitrogen. There are also refrigeration units that can get very cold without liquid nitrogen, though are generally at a somewhat higher temperature. Liquid nitrogen is about -320°F (-196°C). Dry ice is also relatively common for subzero temperatures, it is about -109°F (-78°C). I have also tested the use of household freezers, which are in the range of 10°F to -15°F (-12 to -25°C). This is not as effective since it isn’t as cold, though it can still effect the transformation of steel.

Measured Properties Comparing Commercial and Custom Heat Treating

Below I have collected several examples of measured properties between commercial heat treating and small shop heat treatments. This type of data is not widely available so hopefully it is enlightening.

Hardness

The final hardness of the steel comes from several factors. Austenitizing from a hotter temperature, or tempering from a lower temperature, usually means higher hardness. Cold or cryo processing can increase the hardness another 0.5-3 Rc depending on different factors. However, even with the same austenitizing, tempering, and cryo setup, the quench rate will affect the final hardness. This is one of the biggest differences between typical factory and typical custom heat treating.

For the MagnaCut datasheet I measured hardness for a whole range of austenitizing and tempering combinations with “plate quenching” with no cryo, a household freezer, and liquid nitrogen. We also sent steel to Peters Heat Treating, which has typical factory vacuum furnaces that use a pressurized gas quench. They tested with a “2 bar” nitrogen gas quench. You can see that the hardness after the pressurized gas quench by Peters (bottom) is typically 0.5-1 Rc lower than when I plate quenched individual pieces.

Different steels can be more or less sensitive to these differences. MagnaCut has 2% Mo in it which increases its hardenability (thus it is less sensitive to quench rate). However, AEB-L has no Mo and thus it can benefit more from a fast quench. Of course an oil hardening steel would be very soft even with a high pressure quench in a vacuum furnace. For air hardening steels I have heard reports of up to 2 Rc difference between a plate quench and a 2-bar gas quench in a vacuum furnace.

Of course with oil hardening steels they require an oil quench. This is more difficult to do in large batches than air hardening steels. However, factories that are setup for oil quenching will have a relatively similar quench rate to a custom knifemaker. Both are quenching in oil so there isn’t much difference.

Toughness 

I have toughness data for vacuum furnace heat treating of MagnaCut from three different heat treaters that use vacuum furnaces, which I have compared against my own experiments with plate quenching.

The “2-bar” and “Unknown pressure” heat treaters were targeting the same hardness with the same temperatures. I am not sure the reason for the discrepancy in hardness. For toughness, both are a similar offset below the “Plate Quench” numbers because of the slower quench speed. Presumably they had a similar quench rate. The slower quench rate led to a reduction in toughness for a given hardness. The faster 10-bar quench also used a higher austenitizing temperature and a higher target hardness, so the faster quench is not the only reason for higher hardness. However, for a given hardness this heat treatment was closer in toughness to the “custom” heat treatment using a relatively rapid plate quench.

Carbon and Low Alloy Steels

Below are results from heat treating of 52100 with a heat treatment performed by knifemaker Warren Krywko and also two heat treatment facilities that can do oil quenched blades:

The austenitizing temperatures and quench rate were similar in the case of 52100 since all were quenching in oil. Therefore the hardness and toughness was similar whether it was done in a small shop or by a commercial heat treatment company.

Forging and Thermal Cycling by Custom Knifemakers

One way that custom knifemakers will try to make their heat treatments better than factory knives is in forging and thermal cycling of their blades prior to the steps we outlined above (austenitizing, quenching, and tempering). While knifemakers typically will claim that forging, and especially thermal cycling, is for the purpose of refining the grain size, instead the biggest differences are from affecting the carbide structure prior to austenitizing. The steel manufacturers typically want the steel to be as soft as possible for easy machining and grinding by the end customer. The very soft steel is achieved by having a relatively coarse annealed microstructure. If instead the carbides are smaller and the steel is a bit harder in the annealed condition, then the hardness-toughness balance can be improved somewhat. By modifying the normalizing and annealing process (called “thermal cycling” by knifemakers) you can achieve these results. Click here for an article about normalizing and annealing. This thermal cycling could likely be replicated to some extent even in a factory setting, but typically the time, logistics, and cost make this less feasible when hundreds or thousands of blades are being produced. Below I have the same 52100 chart as before but this time I added in results from 52100 that was forged and thermal cycled by my father Devin Thomas. To be clear, it was the modification to the carbide structure through a different normalizing and annealing process that led to the change in properties, not the forging. You can read about the process that was followed in this article on 52100.

Some steel manufacturers will have a coarser starting structure than others, leading to differences in how the steel responds to heat treatment. In my study on 80CrV2, I found that one steel manufacturer’s steel needed significantly higher temperatures than the others to achieve the same hardness. Notice how the “Buderus” material is softer than the steel labeled “Jantz” or “AKS” which were also heat treated as-received from the manufacturer. The “KSN cycling” used my own recommended normalizing and annealing. The cycling procedure I performed did not start with forged steel, showing that the improved microstructure can be achieved without forging.

We found that this result lined up with the starting microstructure:

Buderus-annealed 80CrV2

Jantz-Supplied 80CrV2

80CrV2 with “KSN cycling”

The smaller carbide size also led to improved toughness for a given hardness with 80CrV2. Notice that toughness was similar for each condition but at higher hardness when the starting carbide size was smaller:

Forging and Annealing Stainless Steels

While “thermal cycling” is much, much more common with simple carbon and low alloy steels, there are improvements to be had even with stainless steels by refining the carbide structure. Below are results for AEB-L and MagnaCut:

You can see that in both cases we had relatively small improvements to the hardness-toughness balance by improving the annealing process that was used for those two stainless steels. You can read about how those were optimized in this article on forging and annealing stainless steels.

When Custom Heat Treatments are Worse

In many cases the difference is pretty small between a “basic” heat treatment and one with more involved thermal cycling. Usually with more complex and “dialed-in” heat treatments the potential improvements are small, on the order of 10-20%. When I refer to a “dialed-in” heat treatment I am also referring to other aspects like optimizing austenitizing and tempering temperatures. I have many articles on my website for various steels, such as when I found that CPM-CruWear has better toughness with a low temperature temper of 400°F/200°C despite the fact that the datasheet recommends the high temperature range (~1000°F/540°C) instead. However, these types of temperature optimizations can be (and sometimes are) done by either factories or by individual custom knifemakers.

When using complex or “fancy” heat treatments, the chance of making the steel worse is usually greater than the chances of making it better. I think every buyer should be skeptical of knifemakers that are claiming their heat treatments are significantly better; without quantitative, controlled testing methods the knifemaker is unlikely to know whether an improvement has been achieved. I have heard many knifemakers claim improvements based on changes they made that basically have no chance of improving anything. And some of those modifications are actually making it worse. For Knife Steel Nerds I have tested heat treatment changes I was sure would improve the steel, but instead found worse properties. For example, I did a rapid triple quench heat treatment of 1084 using salt pots. The hardness ended up the same, but I was shocked to see that the toughness had been significantly reduced, especially since the grain size was small in all three tested conditions. The normal furnace heat treatment is labeled “Furnace in air,” the short salt pot heat treatment is labeled “Salt pot, 3 mins,” and the triple quench is the same label with “(x3)” added. In this case the best result was with the basic and boring heat treatment.

But the above examples I have given on improved (or worsened) custom heat treatments all assume furnace heat treating with well controlled temperatures. There is a much more common and pernicious form of custom heat treating which is largely accepted in custom knifemaker circles: forge heat treating. The biggest problem with forge heat treating is that the temperatures are not well controlled. Typically the knifemaker does not even know for sure what the temperature is. There are some methods, like using a magnet, that are used to try to be more consistent, but none are as good as using a furnace with well controlled temperatures. Some steels are more sensitive than others, and some methods are better at being consistent, but none are perfect. Knifemaker/metallurgist Juha Pertulla did an experiment with forge heat treating of 1075 steel where he found that holding the steel for only one second beyond reaching nonmagnetic had already led to increased grain size and reduced toughness. Using 80CrV2 with its vanadium addition made the steel less sensitive to overheating. In my own experiments with forge heat treating I also found 1084 steel (similar to 1075) to be sensitive to overheating:

I have had multiple knifemakers argue with me that I am wrong about the unreliability of forge heat treating. Three of them have sent me steel they heat treated to show me how their forge heat treatments are consistently high in performance. Every case I have tested so far has resulted in poor toughness from overheating. Here is one example:

When Custom and Factory Heat Treating is the Same

Many custom knifemakers do not perform their own heat treating and instead send to commercial heat treaters. This can be for a variety of reasons, but three common scenarios are: 1) the knifemaker doesn’t have the cash for investing in heat treating equipment, 2) the knifemaker doesn’t trust himself to learn how to properly heat treat and/or trusts the commercial heat treater more, or 3) the knifemaker works at a high enough volume that a commercial heat treater makes more sense. In these cases there is unlikely to be much difference between the heat treatment performed on the knives for an individual knifemaker and those performed on “factory” knives. Of course, the lines are sometimes blurred between “custom” and “factory” knives where knifemakers may outsource many steps beyond heat treating. There isn’t anything inherently wrong with this it just means we can’t always neatly categorize things.

Edge Retention

Many years ago I analyzed a set of CATRA edge retention data from a major knife manufacturer and wrote two articles about it: Part 1 and Part 2. Later I obtained my own CATRA tester and did a large set of tests on a wide range of steels. I have had some knife enthusiasts argue that because I was performing my own custom heat treatments that my tests should not be accepted out of hand. Usually this is because they think a steel over- or under-performed relative to where they had already decided this steel should be on the chart. To study this I compared a range of steels that I had tested to the knife manufacturer’s dataset:

The relative position of each steel was basically the same whether it was my tests with “custom” heat treatments or the knife manufacturer with “factory” heat treatments. However, you will notice that my results were consistently somewhat higher than the knife manufacturer, averaging about 17% better. This is not because my heat treating was superior, but rather due to differences in the design of the blades, the edge geometry, and how the blades were sharpened. The “behind the edge” thickness was greater with the production-made test knives. Also, the knives that I tested were sharpened with an Edge Pro which keeps the edges very “triangular” without rounding. The factory sharpened knife edges instead have a more convex shape, which makes them behave more like an edge sharpened to a more obtuse angle. The factory knives were given a polishing step at the end of sharpening. My knives were sharpened to 400 grit, relatively coarse, which gives the steels enhanced slicing edge retention. I have tested the effect of edge finish on CATRA edge retention in the past:

Another clue is seen when we plot the percent difference between my “custom” knives and their factory knives vs the total CATRA edge retention:

If we ignore Maxamet, the percent difference is greater with lower edge retention steels. I promise I do not have secret heat treatments that can make 55 Rc 420 steel cut 50% longer. Instead it was because of the differences in sharpening and edge geometry. With the low wear resistance of 420, how much cardstock it cut was largely controlled by its cutting ability (sharpness and edge geometry) rather than its wear resistance.

To illustrate just how important the edge geometry is, here is a chart showing the effect of total edge angle vs CATRA edge retention:

You can see that AUS-6 with a 27 degree edge (13.5 degrees per side) cut about 400 mm of cardstock. This matched the performance of the significantly more wear resistant CPM-154 with a 34 degree edge, which is only 3.5 degrees per side greater. And that same 400 mm is measured with the very wear resistant S110V with an edge angle of about 41 degrees. If CPM-154 is given a 27 degree edge instead, it matches Maxamet with a 41 degree edge! So small differences in sharpening can make a big difference in the result of an edge retention test.

Custom knives are often given thinner edges than factory-made knives. In general, when superior edge retention performance is measured with custom knives, it is due to better edge geometry rather than any kind of super, unmatchable heat treatment. When a custom heat treatment does perform better with identical edge geometry and steel it can usually be attributed to higher hardness. In my own CATRA experiments, the effect of hardness is greater than other changes to the heat treatment. This is in contrast with toughness measurements where I often find significant differences when changing heat treatment variables.

Seattle Ultrasonics Kitchen Knife CATRA Study

For one more dataset that shows the importance of edge geometry I can show the “Quantified Knife Project” of Seattle Ultrasonics. I performed the CATRA tests for this project. We measured the cutting performance of a range of low- to high-end factory knives and one custom made knife. For the initial cutting ability (how much cardstock cut in the first back and forth strokes), the only difference in performance was edge geometry and sharpening. In this case the correlation with edge angle is very strong as we would expect:

However, even when we plot edge angle vs CATRA edge retention, we find overall the trend with edge angle is still very strong:

For the majority of the knives, the strong effect of edge geometry completely washes out any potential analysis for the effect of steel type and heat treatment. This is despite the fact that there is a wide range of steel from 56 Rc low wear resistance stainless steels (1.4116) in many of the European knives to ~60 Rc VG10 in many of the Japanese knives. The main exception to the trend are those values at ~820 and ~1050 mm. Those are for the steel advertised as “FC61” steel which is a proprietary name. I have seen speculation that the FC61 is similar to AEB-L or 13C26 (relatively low wear resistance), but this very high performance would seem to point towards it being something more wear resistant. However, not many of the knives were below 20 degrees so there aren’t many other comparisons.

Another specific knife I want to point out is the custom Moritaka knife, the only custom knife that we tested. It was one of the best performers at ~650 mm. This was in Blue Super steel which in my testing with a 30 degree angle was only at 338 mm. So the superior results for this custom knife were not from a super heat treatment or magical forging but instead from a smaller edge angle. Of course it should be noted that the very low edge angle also makes this edge more delicate; it is more likely to chip in use. Everything is a tradeoff.

Sharpenability, Edge Stability, and “Mushy Edges”

In my prior CATRA studies which have included over 50 steels, I have only had significant issues with sharpening a small handful of them. This is in part due to the use of CBN abrasives which makes sharpening even high vanadium steels very easy. Instead, the difficult to sharpen knives were from heat treating, not steel. Those difficult-to-sharpen knives had high retained austenite, which meant that deburring would leave behind a ragged edge which wasn’t very sharp. High retained austenite comes from austenitizing at too high of a temperature, especially in combination with slow quench speeds and when cryo isn’t performed. You can learn more about retained austenite in this article on cryogenic processing.

Both small batch and commercial heat treaters can have issues with retained austenite. But there are a couple areas where commercial heat treaters are at a disadvantage. One is the slower cooling rate we have been discussing throughout this article. Slower cooling stabilizes the retained austenite which makes less of it transform during cold and cryo treatments. The other is that commercial heat treaters often like to perform cryogenic steps in between the two tempering cycles, where cryo is less effective. The first tempering step also helps stabilize austenite just like slow cooling does. They prefer to do it between tempering steps because the cryo processing is less likely to lead to distortion, warping, or cracking. But it is less likely to do so in part because the cryo processing isn’t doing as much. To be clear, some knifemakers doing their own heat treating will also do cryo in between tempering, and some commercial heat treaters will perform cryo directly after the quench when it is more effective.

High retained austenite also makes steel behave as if it is softer than it is. Two knives with the same hardness will behave differently if one has significantly more retained austenite than the other. One area is in sharpening as already mentioned, but the high RA knife will have edges that deform more easily.

With proper selection of austenitizing temperatures and cryo processing, retained austenite can be limited to levels where it doesn’t affect the performance of the knife. Some steels have more issues than others. For example, I found that the datasheet-recommended austenitizing temperature for CPM-S110V was quite high. Steels like Vanax and LC200N are difficult to heat treat beyond 58-60 Rc so the heat treaters are forced to austenitize at the very peak of the curve where it is easy to “overshoot.” For example, here is a comparison between Vanax and Elmax steel with a range of austenitizing temperatures, using cryo and a 300°F (150°C) temper:

You can see that while you can use a pretty wide range of austenitizing temperatures with Elmax and achieve 61+ Rc (and then temper down to target hardness), the range for Vanax is much narrower. The peak hardness is around 1975-2000°F but already at 2025°F the hardness has dropped. When there is a hardness drop from austenitizing too high this is the point where there is too much retained austenite, and in some cases the very peak can also be questionable. So Vanax is difficult to heat treat for 60+ Rc while also avoiding excess retained austenite. When the composition of the steel is slightly different from batch to batch, the austenitizing temperature where peak hardness is reached will vary slightly. This in combination with variation in temperature within a furnace, and between furnace batches, which means that it is usually better to be a bit conservative with the temperature and go a bit lower than the absolute peak.

Corrosion Resistance

The carbides precipitated during a slow quench are also detrimental to corrosion resistance. Of course, other heat treating variables also matter. A higher austenitizing temperature means more chromium carbide is dissolved, putting more chromium in solution for better corrosion resistance. And it is relatively common in industry to use the high tempering range of 950-1050°F (510-565°C) which reduces corrosion resistance. This can make the very high corrosion resistance Vanax behave more like a “normal” stainless steel. I have an article on my corrosion resistance testing here. This high temperature tempering range can be used by both custom knifemakers and commercial heat treaters but I see it somewhat more often with commercial heat treating.

Vanax tempered at 400°F on left and 1000°F on right. Sprayed with 1% saltwater for 24 hours.

Who Knows More About Heat Treating?

In many cases the knowledge of the person performing the heat treatment is more important than the equipment being used. A heat treatment without any issues gives you 90-95% of the potential performance. It is when there is some problem with the heat treatment where the performance is noticeable to the end user. I have written about this in an old article called “What a Good Heat Treatment Can and Cannot Do.”

When a knifemaker or knife company outsources their heat treatment to a commercial heat treater, they typically ask for a target hardness and leave it up to the heat treater. The commercial heat treater presumably has significant experience with heat treating, especially with obtaining consistent results, avoiding catastrophic issues, and with troubleshooting common problems. However, many heat treatment facilities lack metallurgists, and when it comes to measuring properties, the hardness test is by far the most common. As I have shown multiple times in this article, hitting the target hardness is only one tiny piece of the puzzle. Some heat treatment facilities are better than others.

When it comes to custom knifemakers doing their own heat treating, the level of knowledge varies widely. Of course it goes without saying that the average knifemaker is not a metallurgist. In general, I would say that the average knifemaker has knowledge of the basic steps of heat treating, but their knowledge of the mechanisms behind each step is relatively poor. I reacted to knifemaker explanations of heat treatment in this video. If the knifemaker knows how to heat treat correctly and how to follow a datasheet they are usually fine. It is when they are trying to diagnose issues or to modify the heat treatment that they get in trouble without knowing how things “work” in the steel. I have an article and video about the basic steps of heat treating and how to follow a datasheet. For those that want to learn more about what is happening in the steel and how to modify heat treatments for different purposes I have many articles on my website as well as my book Knife Engineering. There are a few knifemakers that have put in the time required to understand heat treating and gained hands-on experience to become well-informed, excellent heat treaters.

Differential Hardening and Hamon

This article is already too long but I did want to mention specialized heat treatment techniques that are almost exclusively performed by custom knifemakers. One is developing a hamon, which is often for artistic purposes rather than strictly performance. Various types of other “differential hardening” techniques are used for specific performance goals like edge quenching or tempering back the spine with a torch. These are famously done to pass the 90 degree bend test required for Journeyman or Master Smith performance testing.

Summary and Conclusions

We went over a lot in this article so I will try to sum up. One of the biggest differences between commercial and custom heat treating is the quench rate. The slower quench rate in many vacuum furnaces used by knife production facilities and large custom knife makers can often lead to a reduction in hardness and toughness. A faster quench that can be accomplished with other equipment gives better properties. The degree to which this matters can be debated, but there is a potential for small batch heat treating to be superior. The potential for improving edge retention with heat treatment is somewhat overhyped. Hardness is the main area where edge retention can be improved, and this can generally be achieved with commercial heat treating. The biggest differences between “good” and “bad” heat treatments come when there is a problem in the heat treatment. It is the heat treaters who can avoid these problems (and diagnose them when they come up) that perform the best heat treatments.


[1] Gonçalves, Cristiane, André Slaviero, Rafael Mesquita, André Tschiptschin, and Paulo Haddad. “Effect of cooling rate during quenching on the toughness of high speed steels.” Journal of ASTM International 8, no. 4 (2011): JAI103483.

[2] Taljat, B., J. Tušek, D. Klobcar, P. Boscarol, and Giorgio Scavino. “Heat and surface treatment of hot-work tool steel for optimum in-service performance.” In The Use of Tool Steels: Experience and Research: Proceedings of the 6th International Tooling Conference, vol. 1, pp. 67-80. 2002.

The post Factory vs Custom Heat Treating of Knives appeared first on Knife Steel Nerds.

Coatings vs Foil – Heat Treating Steel

By: Larrin
21 October 2024 at 14:43

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YouTube Video

I have a video version of the following information:

Why Protect the Surface?

There are two things we are trying to prevent by protecting the surface during heat treating: scale and decarburization. I frequently see knifemakers confusing these two things. Scale is not decarburization, and removing scale does not mean that the layer of decarburization is removed. Scale is the black iron oxide that forms on steel at high temperature in the presence of oxygen. During forging of steel it is common to see this scale come off in flakes.

A bar of 4340 steel with black scale on it

However, the oxygen doesn’t only interact with the iron, but also carbon. The carbon leaves the steel at the surface after forming carbon dioxide or carbon monoxide. This leads to a layer of steel with very low carbon, called a “decarburization layer.”

Problems from Decarburization

This decarb layer doesn’t harden because of the lack of carbon. However, unlike scale, a decarburization layer is still steel so it can be difficult to see without etching in acid first. So sometimes knifemakers are measuring low hardness or easily scratching with a file because they are unaware of this decarburization layer. That soft layer will also obviously affect performance, if an edge is sharpened within the “decarb” layer it will be soft and the knife won’t hold an edge. It can also affect aesthetics because the soft steel will polish differently. Another common issue can be warping and distortion from the decarb layer. This layer being free from carbon means that it will transform to other phases at a different temperature than the rest of the steel. The uneven transformation leads to different size changes within the steel leading to warping.

Protective Atmosphere and Salt Pots

If no oxygen is present, scale will not form and decarburization will not occur. So if the steel is heat treated in a vacuum furnace or within a protective atmosphere like argon then scale and decarb are not issues. With salt pots the steel is within molten salt without an atmosphere, so again there is no scale or decarb. However, these solutions are not always practical so other ways of protecting steel are often used by individual knifemakers with simple heat treating equipment.

Foil

A common method for preventing scale and decarb is to use a heat treating foil. The steel is wrapped in the foil and then each exposed side is folded over at least twice to prevent air from entering the packet. The foil is thin and on the outside so it heats up first and oxidizes which further eliminates oxygen left within the packet.

There are two major types of heat treating foil: 321 and 309 stainless steels. The 321 foil is rated up to 2000°F and the 309 is rated up to 2240°F. The 309 is more expensive than 321. The 321 stainless also has a small titanium addition which is also claimed to help with reacting with oxygen inside the packet [1]. Foil is very sharp so gloves should be worn when handling it. Some people recommend adding paper or oil to burn up inside the packet but this is not necessary. Some people recommend talcum powder to prevent sticking though I haven’t tried it. Reusing foil is not recommended because the foil has already oxidized and also becomes brittle.

The main limitation of foil is for oil or water hardening steels because removing the foil prior to quenching is very difficult within a reasonable time. With air hardening steels the foil works well with a “plate quench” because when the plates are held tight the heat will steel conduct through the foil.

Coatings

Various coatings are also available that are designed to protect steel from scale and decarb during heat treating. These are especially useful for oil and water hardening steels since no foil needs to be removed. I used several different coatings for my recent experiments:

ATP-641 [2] – a water based ceramic coating that is rated up to 2300°F. It can be sprayed, dipped, or brushed.

NoScale2000 [3] – another water based coating that is rated up to 2000°F. The coating is made by Daniel O’Connor for knives. It can be sprayed or brushed. O’Connor also makes a version made for developing a hamon called Hamon1800.

Turco Pretreat [4] – This product is also named Bonderite L-FM Pretreat Aero. It is a paint, so the texture is quite different than the two above. The primary recommendation is to spray this coating though I used it by dipping. The datasheet does not list a maximum temperature.

Condursal Z1100 [5] – Another paint coating like Turco. Rated up to 1100°C (2012°F). Can by applied by brushing, dipping, or spraying.

Experiments

I did three experiments with the different coatings. Each used a 1/8 x 3/4 x 1-1/2 inch (19 x 38 mm) coupon. They were finished to 120 grit and cleaned with soap and water prior to dipping in one of the coatings, followed by letting them dry for 24 hours. The 1095 coupons were only finished to 60 grit and the Condursal Z1100 coupons were only finished to 60 grit. I also tried brushing the NoScale2000 which I will explain in that section. A “bare” sample was also tested with each without a coating.

1. 1095 steel heated to 1475°F for 10 minutes, quenched in Parks 50 oil. This is to test the effect of each coating on the quench since 1095 is a water hardening steel and needs a fast quench.

2. 52100 steel heated to 1550°F for thirty minutes, quenched in Parks 50 oil. This is a relatively standard datasheet heat treatment for 52100. It is on the high end for temperature and time for oil/water hardening steels so it serves as a good test of how much decarb happens for these types of steels.

3. AEB-L steel heated to 1975°F for 30 minutes, then quenched in Parks 50, then placed in liquid nitrogen for an hour. For the AEB-L I also added a sample that was  wrapped in foil prior to a plate quench and then liquid nitrogen. This was a test to see how the coatings did near their temperature limit. Also to see how much decarb happens at this relatively high temperature.

For each coupon I took pictures after cleaning them to see the amount of scale from each. I did microscopy of the cross-section for ATP-641, NoScale2000, and Turco but I didn’t get the Condursal until later so no microscopy for that coating. I also measured hardness for all of them.

Uncoated Coupons

The 1095 coupon formed only a small amount of scale because it was heated to a relatively low temperature of 1475°F (800°C) for a short time of 10 minutes.

1095 coupon heat treated without a coating

The 52100 coupon heat treated at 1550°F for 30 minutes had significantly more scale and it was very dark in color. Some came off when cleaning the oil off the coupon.

52100 coupon heat treated without a coating

The AEB-L coupon heat treated at 1975°F for 30 minutes was not as dark as the 52100 coupon and the scale was a bit less even.

AEB-L coupon heat treated without a coating

Looking at the cross section, the 52100 has a thin decarb layer and thin layer of scale. The AEB-L, however, had a very thick decarb layer measuring over 0.2 mm (~0.01 inches).

52100 uncoated coupon cross section

AEB-L uncoated coupon cross section

1095 Quenching Experiment

I decided to do the quenching experiment based on an earlier experience. A knifemaker contacted me about difficulty with heat treating 80CrV2; it wasn’t hardening. We talked through the process and he told me he was coating each blade with ATP-641. I recommended he try it without the coating and he didn’t have any problems after that.

All of the 1095 specimens fully hardened to 66-67 Rc and this was true at the surface as well as after grinding 1 mm into the specimen. The one exception was the NoScale2000, which was about 36 Rc. I repeated the experiment to make sure it wasn’t a fluke and got 33 Rc. In both cases the coating did not come off during quenching and I had to clean it off to be able to test hardness. I saw that O’Connell recommended brushing on the NoScale2000 rather than dipping so I tried it again by brushing it on. In this case the steel fully hardened.

1095 NoScale2000 coupon after quenching in Parks 50 oil. The coating remained on the steel.

I did not find an issue with hardening the 1095 with ATP-641 despite the prior issue the knifemaker experienced with 80CrV2. However, I do think that there is significant “danger” to quenching slowly with coatings applied. Ensuring the coating is not too thick helps with quenching as expected.

NoScale2000

Another puzzling thing was that the NoScale2000 appeared to lead to even more scale than when heat treating it without any coating. The repeat experiment of 1095 also led to a lot of scale. When I brushed on the NoScale2000 there was still scale that formed it was just more “spotty.”

1095 “bare” coupon (heat treated without a coating)

1095 NoScale2000 dipped coupon #1

1095 NoScale2000 dipped coupon #2

1095 NoScale2000 brushed coupon

The 52100 coupon coated with NoScale200 also had a somewhat spotty appearance similar to the 1095 brushed coupon. The AEB-L NoScale2000 coupon looked at least as bad as the uncoated coupon, perhaps worse.

52100 NoScale2000 coupon

AEB-L NoScale2000 coupon

Looking at the cross-sections, the 52100 coupon looks very similar to the uncoated coupon. The AEB-L coupon has a decarb layer of approximately the same thickness as the uncoated coupon.

52100 NoScale2000 cross-section

AEB-L NoScale2000 cross-section

I let Daniel O’Connor know about my subpar results and he said that, “[Y]our results are not typical of my user base.” He told me about good experiences many knifemakers have had using it. If you have had better experiences with the NoScale2000 let us know in the comments.

ATP-641 Coupons

Surprisingly the 1095 coupon coated with ATP-641 had some spotty scale that formed, not looking too different than the uncoated coupon. The 52100 coupon, however, didn’t have any obvious scale just some discoloration. But the AEB-L coupon formed scale and didn’t look very different than the corresponding uncoated coupon.

1095 ATP-641 coupon

52100 ATP-641 coupon

AEB-L ATP-641 coupon

Looking at the cross-sections with metallography there is no obvious decarburization in either the 52100 or the AEB-L. This is somewhat surprising given the rough scale that formed on the AEB-L. Maybe the ATP-641 affected the surface in some way on its own while still preventing decarb.

52100 ATP-641 cross-section

AEB-L ATP-641 cross-section

Turco Coupons

The 1095 Turco coupon had some scale that formed, lining up with the grinding marks. Perhaps this was because of the coarser 60 grit finish on the 1095 coupon vs the 120 grit on the 52100 and AEB-L coupons. The 52100 coupon had some discoloration and it is hard to tell if it was scale or not but otherwise looked good. The AEB-L perhaps had some light scale that formed but otherwise looked very good.

1095 Turco coupon

52100 Turco coupon

AEB-L Turco coupon

There was no apparent decarburization visible in the metallography analysis of the 52100 coupon. The AEB-L coupon also looked good apart from one corner where presumably the Turco had rubbed off prior to heat treatment.

52100 Turco cross-section

AEB-L Turco cross-section

Condursal Z1100 Coupons

The Condursal seemed to be very similar to the Turco apart from color (green vs orange paint). The resulting coupons also looked pretty similar to the Turco coupons. For some reason there was more scale on the 52100 coupon. And the rougher 60 grit finish I did with these followup coupons also seemed to affect the amount of scale that formed somewhat. I did not do metallography with these coupons.

1095 Condursal Z1100 coupon

52100 Condursal Z1100 coupon

AEB-L Condursal Z1100 coupon

Foil

I only used foil with AEB-L. As expected the steel came out completely clean apart from some rainbow coloration from the small amount of oxygen left in the packet.

AEB-L foil coupon

Surprisingly there is what looks like a thin decarb layer visible in the cross-section. Perhaps the little bit of oxygen that interacts with the steel is enough for a small amount of decarburization.

AEB-L foil coupon cross-section

User Error?

This is my first time using many of these coatings so there can certainly be criticism of my technique. Dipping into the coating did not seem like the very best way to apply most of them. The one I thought had the best texture for dipping was the NoScale2000 which was also the one that didn’t come off when quenching. The Turco and Condursal recommend very thin coatings in the datasheets but I was concerned some of it might have been running off while drying. The coating thickness did not appear to be even. Perhaps spraying would have been better for some/all of these coatings. I attempted brushing the coatings on but didn’t like it; even letting them dry in between coats seemed to lead to me brushing off as much as I was brushing on. The surface finish also appears to matter with these coatings, a finer finish is better. And they need to be clean of course.

Scale-X

One coating I found about too late is Thermodur Scale-X. It is a paint-based coating that comes in a spray can so you don’t need a dedicated sprayer. Based on my experience with the coatings in this article I think spraying might be better so this sounds very convenient. And the two paint-based coatings I tried worked well. So I will be getting some to test it.

Summary and Conclusions

Coatings can be useful in certain instances for oil and water hardening steels. I had somewhat inconsistent results with them. I also found that the amount of decarb is relatively small at temperatures typical of water and oil hardening steels (less than 1600°F/870°C) so it depends on how much of a hassle you think applying the coatings is. If you plan to remove material through grinding after the coatings may not be necessary for low alloy steels. Thoroughly cleaning the steel and having a fine finish is helpful for the coatings to work at their potential. Learning to effectively apply them likely requires some trial and error. I wasn’t totally happy with dipping or brushing them on, may spraying is better. For steels that require high temperature, in this case AEB-L, I was able to prevent decarb with the coatings except for NoScale2000. Decarburization is quite significant without any type of protection and should definitely be avoided. The Turco and Condursal coatings led to a more scale-free surface than the ATP-641 and NoScale2000. I greatly prefer foil for heat treating air hardening steels.


[1] https://www.toolwrap.com/pages/all-about-tool-wrap?srsltid=AfmBOoqG9o8GgfgNq8u2WT2Eh9IeyYGLYITqxhqOkq-qoc1ENjuQ2joR

[2] https://atp-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/ATP-641.pdf

[3] https://nuclayer.twinoaksforge.com/product/noscale-2000-16oz/

[4] https://webaps.ellsworth.com/edl/Actions/GetLibraryFile.aspx?document=12319&language=en

[5] https://www.theduffycompany.com/condursal-z1100/

 

The post Coatings vs Foil – Heat Treating Steel appeared first on Knife Steel Nerds.

Introduction to Knife Steel Heat Treating from a Metallurgist

By: Larrin
17 September 2024 at 14:10

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Intro

I have many articles about all of the nitty gritty details of heat treating and the metallurgy behind every step. However, there may be some cases where knifemakers are afraid of all of the terminology and science and think heat treating is too complicated for them. When it comes down to it, the steps of heat treating are not particularly difficult. When you follow a recipe for how to make cookies you don’t need to know the science behind every step, but following them will still get you cookies at the end. An expert would know what went wrong if your cookies were too crunchy, too puffy, spread out too much, etc. And how to modify the recipe to change the flavor and texture of the cookies. However for most of us we will just follow the recipe. You can do the same thing with heat treating knife steel! So for this article I will tell you how to follow a datasheet. I will include some links to articles with more information about what happens in each step, but you can get to those when you are ready. Another great place to learn more about heat treating is my book Knife Engineering: Steel, Heat Treating, and Geometry.

Video

There is a video version of the following content, which demonstrates some of the things described in the article. The article has some more detail that the video doesn’t have.

What Are We Trying to Accomplish When Heat Treating?

When you purchase knife steel you are getting very soft steel in a condition that is easy to grind, drill, machine, or cut. This is called the “annealed” condition. However, soft steel is not good for a knife as the knife edge would easily deform. It would not “hold” a good edge. So we have to perform a series of heat treating steps to get it to high hardness for good knife performance. We are targeting a range of hardness usually between about 58 and 63 Rockwell C (Rockwell C is the unit of measurement). Sometimes the hardness unit is abbreviated as “Rc” or “HRC.” The higher end of hardness gives better edge retention but has lower “toughness.” Toughness is a measure of resistance to breaking.

Furnaces for Heat Treating

The basic piece of equipment for heat treating is a furnace. A forge can also be used but it isn’t my favorite method. I have recommendations on how to properly heat treat with a forge here. There are several manufacturers of furnaces and some knifemakers will make their own. I use EvenHeat furnaces, I have a KO 22.5, an LT 22.5, and a Salt Bath 709. The KO model is the high temperature model that can reach 2350°F. I previously had the LB model which has a somewhat larger chamber (width and height) with the tradeoff that it reaches 2200°F. The LT model is designed for tempering up to 1200°F. A regular furnace can also be used for tempering but they aren’t “tuned” and calibrated for low temperature, and you have to wait for the furnace to cool down before tempering. You can also use a conventional oven for tempering though the temperature will be more variable.

One of the big decisions for a heat treating furnace is 120 or 240V. The higher voltage EvenHeat models are roughly twice as fast and also have larger chambers. This makes heat up time twice as long with the low voltage and it takes longer to “rebound” after opening the door and inserting steel. It is better to use 240V if possible, and if you don’t have the capability for doing that you should contact an electrician. Another important decision is the depth, or length, of the furnace. It is usually a good idea to get one a bit longer than you think you would need. If you ever wanted to make a longer blade such as a bowie or kitchen knife you will need a relatively long furnace. Also the temperature is usually somewhat different at the ends of the furnace, especially right next to the door. So having some space between the blade and the front/back is a good idea.

Steps of Heat Treating

The main properties you achieve after heat treating will be obtained after three main steps: austenitizing, quenching, and tempering. For stock removal makers these will be the main steps you perform, while for a forging bladesmith you will perform a couple other steps after forging to set up the steel for these three steps. You heat the steel up hot (austenitize), cool it rapidly (quench), and then reheat to a low temperature (temper). Not very complicated.

Austenitizing

Austenitizing is the high temperature step soaking step, generally 1450-2250°F depending on the steel and desired hardness. Typically a higher austenitizing temperature means higher hardness, as shown on the following table from the MagnaCut datasheet:

You can read about what happens during austenitizing in this article: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/02/28/austenitizing-part-1-what-it-is/

Atmospheric Protection – Foil or Coatings

One thing that a datasheet often assumes is that you know about protecting your steel from the atmosphere and oxygen. Oxygen leads to scale formation and also decarburization, which leads to a layer of soft steel under the scale. With low alloy steels austenitized under 1600°F or so the scale and decarb may not be bad enough to protect the steel as long as you plan on removing some material after heat treatment. There are also coatings that can protect the steel. I recently tested a few of them though I haven’t published those results yet.

For high alloy and stainless steels the most typical method is to use “heat treating foil.” The two common types are 309 and 321 foil, which are stainless steels. 309 is rated up to 2240°F while 321 is rated up to 2000°F, though the 309 is more expensive. You create a foil envelope to place the knife in and fold each of the sides. Some people include talcum powder to prevent sticking though I haven’t typically had issues with sticking apart from high temperatures (>2000°F) and long soak times. Some people recommend putting paper or something else to burn up in the foil packet but this isn’t necessary. Foil is most often used with high alloy and stainless steels which don’t require an oil quench, because removing the foil before quenching in oil is difficult.

Cross-section of AEB-L steel heat treated in a furnace at 1925°F without any protection. The “bright” layer is the “decarb layer” which no longer contains carbon. It is over 0.2 mm thick.

Preheating

Many datasheets recommend “preheating” steps where the steel is heated up to an intermediate temperature before increasing the temperature up to the final target. I described preheating in this article. This process can be done with multiple furnaces or by soaking at the preheating tempreature prior to a ramp to the final temperature. This process is to help the steel achieve a uniform temperature so that it doesn’t transform unevenly. However, knives are thin enough where this isn’t typically an issue. I recommend holding the furnace for 30 minutes at the target final austenitizing temperature instead. You can read why I think so in this article about small knife furnaces and temperature distributions inside them.

Soak Time

After the steel has reached the austenitizing temperature it needs to be held at that temperature for some period of time, called a “soak.” The soak time recommended in a datasheet is supposed to start after the steel has reached the temperature. Sometimes I cheat and start the timer after the furnace has “rebounded” to the temperature (it cools down from opening the door and inserting a cold piece of steel). Once the steel has reached the same color as the furnace it has reached the temperature. You are only seeing the surface but steel is highly conductive and knives are thin so once the surface has reached the temperature it is only seconds before the center has as well.

You will notice that the MagnaCut chart above shows different soak times for each austenitizing temperature, as higher temperatures will often mean a shorter required soak time. The thickness of the steel also matters, the datasheet for MagnaCut says “Min soak time” and if the steel is thicker than 1/8″ (3.3 mm) it may need a few more minutes.

Some knifemakers are afraid of soaking because they think that holding it at temperature will grow the grain size. It is true that holding steel longer will grow the grains but temperature matters much more than time. Holding a steel for 30 minutes is not going to hurt it if the temperature is correct. Undersoaking is a more common issue than oversoaking.

Quenching

The quenching step is what actually hardens the steel. The austenitize dissolves carbides so that carbon is “in solution” prior to quenching but the rapid quench transforms the steel to the hard phase of steel. If the quench is too slow the steel will not reach its full hardness and will have poor properties.

Steels are broadly categorized into three quenching groups: water hardening, oil hardening, and air hardening. Low alloy steels and simple carbon steels typically require a water or oil quench. These are steels like 1095, O1, 80CrV2, and 52100. High alloy and stainless steels are “air hardening” and do not require a water or oil quench to harden after austenitizing. These are steels like A2, D2, 440C, CPM-154, S30V, MagnaCut, and Vanadis 4 Extra.

With low alloy and carbon steels the speed of the quench necessary is controlled by the thickness of the steel (the “cross section”) and the steel. The speed of quench can be broken down into 1) water and brine, 2) fast oil, 3) medium oil, and 4) slow oil. If you get only one oil I would recommend a fast oil like Parks 50 because high hardenability oil hardening steels like O1 can still be quenched in Parks 50, but a low hardenability steel like 1095 would not work with a slow oil. You can buy Parks 50, sometimes generically called Quench 50, from a couple different places including Dubois. I have an article comparing different oils and cross-sections here. I learned that a steel like 1084 can be quenched in a range of different oils at only 1/8″, but at thicker sizes like 1/4″ the type of oil definitely matters. That article also ranks common low alloy steels by “hardenability” (how fast of a quench they need) to help you pick the oil for different steels and cross-sections. With oil and water quenching you “cut” into the liquid with the knife and move up and down rapidly to break up the “vapor jacket” that slows down cooling from the oil/water boiling on the steel surface. Moving side to side can lead to warping.

It is popular for knifemakers now to quench air hardening steels through a “plate quench,” often with aluminum plates. The steel is placed in between aluminum plates so that heat is drawn out. This is faster than sitting in air and helps keep the knife flat (if the bevels are not yet ground). This can also be performed without removing heat treating foil.

Tempering

After quenching, the steel is very high in hardness, but is also brittle. During tempering the steel is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and reduce brittleness. The hardness of the steel is also lowered somewhat (see the MagnaCut chart from earlier or the chart below).

Tempering Chart for 154CM

Typically steel is tempered at least twice, and each temper is usually 1-2 hours long. Tempering at a higher temperature usually decreases hardness though there is an exception called “secondary hardening” in high alloy steels when tempered between about 750 and 1100°F (400-600°C). You can read about the mechanisms behind tempering in this article. Tempering can be done in a conventional oven or in a heat treating furnace after it cools down. I have some tips on using a heat treating furnace for tempering in this article. EvenHeat also makes a furnace designed for tempering.

More complete tempering chart for 154CM that shows “secondary hardening” above 750°F (400°C)

Cooling After Tempering

There are some people that recommend a rapid quench in between tempering steps. This can be done if you are in a hurry. Air cooling to room temperature in between is sufficient. If you are curious as to why you have to cool in between rather than holding longer you can read the article I linked to under the section labeled “retained austenite”.

Cold Treatments

There is an optional “cold treatment” step during heat treating that can increase hardness. Some datasheets recommend this in between tempering steps but I prefer it directly after quenching. In effect it is an extension of the quench down to a lower temperature. A delay between the quench and the cold treatment can lead to less effect of the cold treatment. The MagnaCut chart from before has hardness values from quenching to room temperature, performing a cold treatment in a household freezer, or a cryogenic treatment in liquid nitrogen. No real hold is necessary at the low temperature, the steel just needs to reach the temperature. Typically 30-60 minutes is enough. I have an article on cryo treatments of AEB-L where I discuss a lot more about how cryo works.

“As quenched” hardness of AEB-L with no cold treatment, a freezer, or liquid nitrogen from different austenitizing temperatures.

You may have noticed that hardness can drop if the austenitizing temperature was too high; Using 1900°F (1035°C) austenitizing temperature with AEB-L only resulted in around 0.5 Rc increase in hardness by using liquid nitrogen. From 1975°F (1080°C) the hardness went up from 60.5 Rc to 64 Rc.

You can use most any dewar for holding liquid nitrogen. An off-brand dewar from Amazon or Ebay works just fine. The important specs are the size of the container, usually in liters (mine is 10L), and the diameter of the neck. The most common diameter is 50 mm (~2 inches) but this can be restrictive for wider blades. However, the larger the neck the faster the dewar loses nitrogen, so typically you need to buy a relatively large dewar to get a larger diameter neck.

Extra Steps After Forging – Normalizing and Annealing

When steel is forged it is no longer in the annealed condition. It may not be soft enough for cutting, drilling, etc. And it is not in the best condition for performing the austenitize, quench, and temper. The basic process that needs to be followed is a normalize and anneal. Normalization involves heating to a relatively high temperature (usually somewhat higher than an austenitizing temperature like 1650°F), and then air cooled. This gives the steel a uniform microstructure and grain size. Annealing is done from a temperature typically a bit lower than austenitizing (like 1400°F) and then slow cooled. Annealing makes the steel soft and sets it up for the final heat treating steps. You will also notice below an optional step labeled “grain refinement” that I generally recommend skipping as I have not found an improvement with my testing. This step is relatively common with knifemakers but not in industry and is not recommended in datasheets.

I have an article that describes this process and provides recommended temperatures for normalizing and annealing different steel. For those few brave knifemakers I also have an article on how to anneal stainless steel and high alloy steel after forging it.

Heat Treating in a Forge Instead of a Furnace

The article up until this point discusses heat treating using a controlled temperature furnace. This is my preferred way of heat treating and provides consistent results every time. Some knifemakers like to heat treat with a forge with less control over the exact temperature. I developed a method for minimizing error in forge heat treating as it is very common to overheat the steel and get poor properties. You can read my recommendations in this article.

Every once in a while a knifemaker contacts me and says I am wrong about forge heat treating and that he can get it perfect every time. Below is an example of tests I performed on some of that steel. The toughness was terrible. If you follow my instructions in the linked article you will increase your chance of success.

What Temperatures Do You Choose From the Datasheet?

Datasheets will often given ranges for possible austenitizing and tempering temperatures. The first thing you should look for is a “recommended” heat treatment. You can modify from there of course but this gives a good starting point. Here are a couple examples:

From the MagnaCut Datasheet

From the Vanadis 4 Extra Datasheet

If the datasheet only gives a range for austenitizing I would start with something in the middle of the range. MagnaCut datasheet says 1950-2200°F and halfway in between that would be 2075°F (1135°C), close to the 2050 recommendation. Vanadis 4 Extra says 940-1180°C which would be 1060°C (1940°F), the same as their recommendation for “large sections.”

For tempering a good starting point is usually 400°F (200°C) or 1000°F (540°C). 400°F is good for most steels, though some high alloy and high speed steels will recommend the 1000°F temper. Often these steels can also be tempered at 400°F but the austenitizing temperature would also need to be adjusted based on that change and that would take some work to figure out.

Another thing you can do is check the back of my book Knife Engineering. I give recommended temperatures for most steels in there.

For many datasheets there are many temperature combinations that could work and it is mostly about selecting a target hardness. 58-63 Rc is a good range to target for many knives; use the higher end for thin slicing knives (and careful customers) and lower for knives that need higher toughness. 60 Rc is a good round number if you want a starting point and aren’t sure.

Elements of a Datasheet

Every datasheet is a bit different but I will break down the various parts of datasheets with the MagnaCut datasheet:

Page one of this datasheet (and often multiple pages of other datasheets) is mostly information about the steel. That top left paragraph describes the steel and its general properties. Next it shows micrographs where you can see that MagnaCut has a much finer microstructure than CPM-154. Below that is a table with information about the carbide types in MagnaCut vs other steels. Then a “Tool Steel Comparagraph” shows bar charts of properties of MagnaCut vs various comparison steels. “Typical Applications” serves to tell potential buyers in different product categories when they might want to look at MagnaCut. At the top right you find the composition. Below that is some physical properties which most knifemakers don’t need. Then some test results showing how MagnaCut stacks up in toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance.

On the second page we find the actual temperature recommendations that we have been discussing. First is the forging and annealing temperatures, which of course you don’t need unless you actually forge the steel.

Stress Relieving

Below that is a category of treatments called “Stress Relieving” which we have not discussed thus far. These treatments are optional but can be useful in certain scenarios. During grinding and machining various stresses are built up in steel that can lead to increased movement and warping during heat treating. Performing a stress relief can help with this, where it says, “Annealed Parts: Heat to 1100-1300°F…” Stresses can still be built up during grinding of heat treated steel which required a temperature just under tempering. This is because we don’t want to overtemper the steel, of course.

Size Change

This datasheet also lists the estimate size change after heat treating the steel. The heat treated structure is slightly larger than the annealed structure of ferrite. So typically we expect a small increase in the size of the part after the heat treatment is complete. Using a higher austenitizing temperature will reduce the size increase somewhat, and could even lead to shrinkage. Using cryo would lead to a larger size. This is from retained austenite (higher austenitizing temperature) or from converting more retained austenite to martensite (cryo). You can read about what all of that means in my cryo articles.

When Different Datasheets Contradict Each Other

I have a whole article on the heat treatment of 80CrV2 where I found virtually every datasheet to recommend something different. For example, Swiss Steel Group has what I would call a fairly standard recommendation where it says to austenitize between 800 and 830°C (1475-1525°F). Then Bestar has a recommendation for 840-880°C (1545-1615°F). And the New Jersey Steel Baron datasheet recommends 1465-1480°F. In terms of “thermal cycling,” Bestar offers no suggestions for normalizing and annealing, Swiss Steel Group recommends annealing at 680°C (1250°F) with a furnace cool, and NJSB recommends 1650°F for 10 minutes air cool, 1500°F for 10 minutes and air cool, and 1350°F for 10 minutes and air cool.

Sometimes these datasheets are generated by steel suppliers and not by metallurgists working for the steel company. This appears to have been the case for the New Jersey Steel Baron datasheet. The 1650-1500-1350 normalizing steps are not standard and cannot be found in any other datasheet. The 1350°F in particular could be skipped entirely as it wouldn’t really do anything. And the 1465-1480°F austenitizing range is on the low end for a steel like this. Many of the NJSB datasheets seem to have these same recommendations regardless of the steel – 1075, 1080, 1084, 1095, 15N20, 5160, 52100, 80CrV2, L6, O1,  W1, and W2 datasheets are all virtually identical. I would avoid these datasheets.

Bestar is also an odd case as for a couple of their steels they recommend oddly high austenitizing temperatures. Generally it looks like their datasheets are usually reliable apart from these few cases. In this case the heat treatment would “work” but would be in danger of reduced toughness from austenitizing too high.

Usually datasheets are not as different as in the case of 80CrV2. Standard steels like this one vary somewhat more when compared to a steel made by a single company. They are the only ones that make it so they are the only ones to make a datasheet. I wouldn’t pay too much attention to heat treating guides from knifemakers. Sometimes they are based on good information from datasheets or my experiments, but sometimes they aren’t.

As I said previously, another thing you can do is check the back of my book Knife Engineering. I give recommended temperatures for most steels in there. Usually I found a trustworthy datasheet to have charts on tempering. And in many cases I have hardness-toughness data from my own tests to confirm what a good heat treatment range is. I can’t always promise to have the 100% perfect heat treatment, but I know it is a good one. And in some cases like with 80CrV2 I have heat treatment guides for specific steels on my website.

Where to Find Datasheets

Datasheets can be found in a variety of places. The first and most obvious is from the manufacturer itself. Here are a few websites:

Crucible – https://www.crucible.com/products.aspx

CPM steels S30V, S90V, 10V, etc. Standard steels like O1, A2, D2, M2, M4, 440C, 154CM

Some of the standard tool steels are hidden in the old Tool Steel Selector – https://www.crucible.com/eSelector.htm

Niagara Specialty Metals also has a collection of Crucible datasheets.

Carpenter – https://www.carpentertechnology.com/blog/blade-alloys-101

CTS-XHP, 204P, BD1, standard steels similar to the Crucible lineup

This website is kind of big and difficult to navigate so I linked to an old “blade alloys” page with links to many of them. Carpenter used to have more old datasheets for various standard steels that seem to be gone now, unfortunately. Some of those were replaced with Latrobe Steel datasheets.

Bohler – https://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/en/

M390, N690, S390, etc. They also have many standard grades but each is given a meaningless Bohler designation like K110 is D2.

Another big and ungainly website. You will want to look at “Cold Work Tool Steels” and “High Speed Steels.” Stainless steels are on two different pages under “Corrosion resistant and non magnetic steel” and also “Plastic Mould Steels.”

Uddeholm – https://www.uddeholm.com/us/en-us/

Elmax, Vanax, Vanadis 4 Extra. They also have many standard grades but each is given a meaningless Uddeholm name like Sverker 21 is D2.

Uddeholm strip steels like AEB-L, 26C3, and 15N20 are on a different website with limited heat treating information – https://www.uddeholmstrip.com/

Alleima (formerly Sandvik) – https://www.alleima.com/en/products/strip-steel/strip-products/knife-steel/hardening-guide/hardening-programs/

13C26, 12C27, 14C28N

Alleima has recommendations for a “belt furnace” or a “batch furnace.” A belt furnace is literally a conveyer belt furnace which most knifemakers do not have. This is why those heat treatments have relatively short soak times that must be changed based on stock thickness. I prefer to use the batch furnace recommendations, since that is the type most knifemakers are using and the longer recommended soak time is less sensitive to changes in stock thickness.

More Obscure Sources for Heat Treating Information

The ASM Heat Treater’s Guide is an awesome expensive book that has heat treating information on all of the old standard grades. However, there is a free app (used to be on iOS but now only on Android) which has the recommended temperatures from the book, though it is missing all of the charts and micrographs: https://heat-treater-s-guide-companion.en.softonic.com/android An older edition of the book is also available to borrow on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/heattreatersguid0000unse/mode/2up

Tool Steels by Gill and Roberts – An old awesome book, the best edition is the 1980 4th edition but only the 3rd edition is online – https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89089662902&seq=6 Unfortunately in 1944 the standard names for steels like D2, A2, M2, etc. did not exist yet so you have to know how to read steel compositions.

Tool Steel Simplified by Palmer and Luerssen – another old book by Carpenter metallurgists which has some good information on a few old standard grades. It can be borrowed for free online – https://archive.org/details/toolsteelsimplif0000fran

There are a lot of other old books but this is enough for now.

Summary

The three major steps of heat treating are austenitizing, quenching, and tempering. These steps will control the properties of the steel.

After forging there are steps needed to soften the steel and set it up for the three main final steps. The main two steps are normalizing and annealing. Some knifemakers put too much emphasis on the “thermal cycling” steps to try to reduce grain size. The final three steps, especially austenitizing, will largely control the properties. Many steel datasheets do not include normalizing or even annealing temperature recommendations; they are available on my website in the “thermal cycling” article or in my book Knife Engineering.

Follow manufacturer datasheets to get good temperatures. There are also heat treatment guides for several steels on my website. Also the back of the book Knife Engineering has recommended austenitizing and tempering temperatures.

 

The post Introduction to Knife Steel Heat Treating from a Metallurgist appeared first on Knife Steel Nerds.

Rapid Heat Treating with Salt Pots

By: Larrin
5 August 2024 at 15:26

Thanks to my Patreon supporters I have a salt pot furnace and was able to get some high temperature salts to test out austenitizing in the salt pot for this article. Patreon dollars also went towards metallography for this study. If you want to support further knife steel research become a Patreon supporter today!

YouTube Video

There is also a video for the following information:

Salt Pots and What I Used

“Salt bath” or “salt pot” heat treating refers to the use of molten salts for heating steel. Specific salts are used for different temperature ranges, so that they melt under the necessary temperature without certain bad things happening by overheating them. For these experiments I used “Neutral Salt B” by Hubbard-Hall which I purchased from High Temp Tools: https://hightemptools.com/products/high-temperature-salt  They list the working range as 1300-1700°F but also says 1700 can only be used for short periods of time. I have also used low temperature salts for austempering which is a totally different use of salt pots; you can read those experiments here. Of course I used a different low temperature salt for those austempering experiments, which you can also buy from High Temp Tools. If you are using molten salts to heat treat stainless or high speed steels you will also need different salts as that would need higher temperatures. These salts are certainly available; salt pot heat treating of high speed steel is actually pretty common, but I don’t know where to buy small amounts of them. If you know a good source let us all know in the comments.

The furnace I used was the EvenHeat Salt Bath 709 which accomodates a 9″ long pot (plus extra that sticks out), though they are also available in larger sizes. There is a control thermocouple within the furnace as well as within the pot itself. So when operating the furnace you heat to the target temperature using the furnace thermocouple first and wait for the salt to melt. Then you insert the second thermocouple into the molten salt and tell the controller to switch modes to the second thermocouple.

Why Use Salt Pots?

Salt pots have a few advantages. One is that you don’t need to protect the steel from oxygen. The steel is present within the molten salt so there is no atmosphere at all. No need for coatings or foil. Just stick the steel into the molten salt and pull it out to quench. Another is the rapid heat transfer. Liquid is much better at transferring heat than air. This is why sticking your hand into boiling water at 212°F (100°C) is much, much scarier than sticking your hand in an oven at the same temperature, or even 500°F (260°C) for that matter.

Salt Pots and Safety

Probably the number one thing you hear about operating salt pots is how dangerous they are. This is true; if you drop significant amounts of water into the salt bath it could explode and you would be in significant danger. You have to take it seriously, wear protective equipment such as a face shield and long sleeves, and avoid letting any water contact the salt. However, I have also heard some knifemakers take this to extremes, saying things like not to even leave any sharpie markings on the steel and this is exaggerating the level of danger. Don’t take it lightly, but if you follow proper procedures and take safety precautions you can use these furnaces without issues.

Time to Heat Steel in Molten Salt vs Air

As I mentioned, one of the big benefits of salt pots is the shorter time required for heating the steel. To test this I used 1/8 x 1-1/2 x 2-1/4 inch (3.3 x 40 x 55 mm) coupons of 1084 and used 1 minute increments (separate coupons for the different hold times). This is total time in the furnace, not soak time at temperature. Of course, larger coupons would take longer to heat up. I then did the same experiments by using my normal furnace where the coupon was heated in air:

Unfortunately I was a bit late on the 2 minute coupon and it was actually 2 minutes and 20 seconds, so we can’t see exactly how long it took to heat up the steel with the salt pot. But certainly by 3 minutes the steel had reached the target temperature. There was then a small increase in hardness up to 4-5 minutes in the salt as more carbide dissolved. With a 3 minute hold in the conventional furnace the hardness didn’t change at all, meaning it still hadn’t formed any austenite (somewhere under 1335°F/723°C or so). It wasn’t until 5-6 minutes that the steel reached the target temperature. So you can save a few minutes of heat treating time when using salt instead of air. How much this matters will depend on the individual, of course.

The required time to dissolve carbides also depends on the temperature. Below shows published micrographs of 1080 steel [1] with different hold times at only 730°C (1346°F) where it took 5 minutes just to transform the steel to austenite (g), and then another ten minutes to dissolve most of the carbide (h). You can also see how the transformation happened, as the white ferrite was replaced by dark martensite (austenite at high temperature before quenching) with increasing hold time. Then more carbide (white particles) were dissolved with further hold time. You can read more about how this happens in this article on austenitizing.

Micrographs from [1]

Time to Heat vs Time to Soak

1084 is a simple steel with only carbon, manganese, and silicon added to it. The main element that needs to diffuse for transforming the steel to austenite is carbon. Carbon is a very small element and therefore it diffuses very fast. However, when other alloying elements are added it can lead to significantly longer times required for austenitizing. I used 52100 with the factory-annealed condition to illustrate this. 52100 has 1.5% chromium which significantly slows down the time for carbides to dissolve, even at a higher temperature of 1525°F (830°C):

While the 1084 was nearly 66 Rc after only 3 minutes, 52100 with the same hold time at 50°F higher temperature was only 59 Rc. This isn’t because the steel didn’t heat up as fast but because the carbides in the steel did not dissolve as quickly from the chromium addition. The hardness didn’t “level off” until 7+ minutes in the molten salt, and was still climbing after 11 minutes. This is partly why I recommend having a sufficiently long soak time to ensure that you reach a steady state before quenching. Sometimes knifemakers in my comments will ask why I am soaking for so long (10-30 minutes) and say that they only use 5 minutes or even shorter. That results in poor consistency because the hardness can change significantly with a small change in soak time. This also means that the heat treatment becomes very sensitive to the size of the piece as well. Maintaining the same time but with different sized knives would yield very different results.

Another thing to note is that this was with the factory-annealed condition, with relatively coarse spheroidized (round) carbides. The austenitizing time could be shorter with a different starting microstructure. I wrote about this difference and how to use it with forge heat treating here: How to Thermal Cycle Knife Steel. Below shows the difference between pearlite and spheroidized carbides for austenitizing 52100:

Data from [2]

Rapid Austenitizing for Better Performance?

Rapid heating and short soak times are also used in some cases to achieve a finer grain size, and a finer grain size can result in higher toughness. I tested this by heat treating 1084 coupons with a total of 3 minutes in the salt at 1475°F. A true “soak time” includes only the time actually at temperature, so the true soak time is something like 1-2 minutes. I also tried a “triple quench” with another coupon by repeating this procedure two more times. The coupons were quenched in Parks 50 and tempered at 400°F twice. I compared with another coupon that was given a more conventional soak for ten minutes in my normal EvenHeat furnace in air with the same 1475°F, Parks 50 quench, and 400°F tempering.

The conventional heat treatment with the ten minute soak resulted in the same toughness but slightly higher hardness. So despite the potential for finer grain size this did not result in improved toughness. This is relatively similar to a result I saw with 8670 heat treatments where using a 5 minute soak resulted in lower hardness and toughness than a 10 or 15 minute soak:

Prior experiments with 8670 steel in a conventional furnace

Temperature matters much more than soak time for grain size, and in general you don’t need to be afraid of grain growth with a longer soak. Here is a study on 52100 [3] that illustrates this:

Data adapted from [3]

The big surprise was the triple quench which resulted in much lower toughness than the other two heat treatments. The ~11 ft-lbs of the triple quench makes the steel much closer to 1095 and O1, significantly higher carbon steels (~0.95% carbon), which were around 8 ft-lbs at the same hardness:

The older 1084 datapoints on this chart are slightly lower than these new values. That 1084 was from a different steel manufacturer.

The fracture grain of the single and triple quenched 1084 was very fine, so I knew the drop in toughness was not from significant grain growth. So I decided to look at the microstructure of the two conditions:

Single Quench 1084 (3 minutes in 1475°F salt)

“Triple Quenched” 1084 (3 minutes in 1475°F and quenched, repeated)

The main thing I noticed is that there was much more carbide in the single quench version. This makes some sense given that it had 1/3 the total soak time. However, the ten minute in air condition had a similar soak time and did not have a significant drop in toughness. It appears that performing the austenitize and soak repeatedly led to more rapid carbide dissolution than a single soak. Heat treating from a martensitic condition (after quenching the first time) is known to lead to more rapid austenite formation, so I believe this is what happened with the multiple quench. With more carbide dissolved, this put more carbon in solution which also reduces toughness for a given hardness. This is the same reason why O1 and 1095 have lower toughness, because they had high carbon in solution with the same 1475°F ten minute soak. You can read more about this (and some things that can be done to improve toughness with high carbon steels), in this article about austempering.

With O1 I was able to improve toughness by austenitizing at a lower temperature of 1425°F. It is quite likely that I could improve the toughness of the triple quenched 1084 by using a lower austenitizing temperature as well. However, I think this result is still a good warning to those that think that any “special heat treatment” they perform could potentially help and certainly wouldn’t hurt. With any specialized heat treatment, the potential improvement is usually small but the potential for being detrimental is always there, and probably more likely.

O1 toughness was improved by using a lower austenitizing temperature (1425 vs 1475°F)

We did a triple quench experiment with CruForgeV in a conventional furnace back in 2018. In this case we did each soak for 10 minutes in the furnace, the first two at 1450°F and the final at 1500°F. With this experiment we also saw an increase in hardness and a drop in toughness by triple quenching, though the drop in toughness was not as extreme as the salt pot triple quench of 1084. The smaller drop is likely due to 1) the chromium addition to CruForgeV so its carbides dissolve more slowly and it is not as sensitive to overheating, and 2) the lower temperature used in the first two quenches.

Single vs Triple quench of CruForgeV

Prior Triple Quench Salt Pot Experiments by Dr. John Verhoeven

There is an experiment reported by Dr. John Verhoeven in his book Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist [4] that he wrote for knifemakers and bladesmiths. He tried it with 1045, 1086, and 5150 low alloy steels. First he heated the steels to 1650°F for 15 minutes and quenched in oil. This was the starting condition where he measured the grain size. Then he heated each steel to 1450°F for 4 minutes in a salt pot and quenched in oil, repeating the procedure two more times (triple quench). He found a decrease in grain size relative to the initial condition after the 1650°F and quench (larger ASTM number means finer grain size):

In this case his results make sense given that the 1650°F austenitize would definitely result in a larger grain size. The repeated cycles at 1450°F were beneficial in refining the grain size, though the result from one or two cycles was not tested. So I think it makes sense for this particular experiment to show a finer grain size from a rapid salt pot “triple quench” while my toughness experiments did not show an improvement. It is also possible that my triple quench actually did improve the grain size but the higher carbon in solution was a more important factor. Measuring very fine grain sizes is difficult.

Do I Recommend Salt Pots for Austenitizing?

I heat treat a wide range of steels with a wide range of austenitizing temperatures so having to use multiple salts and pots doesn’t really work for me. Cleaning out a pot to switch to a different type of salt is definitely not an exciting prospect. So I would probably only recommend salt bath furnaces for those that are using a narrow range of steel types and benefit from shorter soak times and the clean surface coming out, both of which lead to saving them time. But there are several knifemakers out there that swear by salt pots so there might be some benefits I am not thinking of.

Summary and Conclusions

Salt bath furnaces have much faster heating rates than conventional furnaces and also do not require any protection of the steel furnace (there is no oxygen present). Toughness experiments did not reveal an improvement to properties despite the potential for grain refinement with rapid heating and short soak times.


[1] Samuels, Leonard Ernest. Light microscopy of carbon steels. ASM International, 1999.

[2] Stickels, C. A. “Carbide refining heat treatments for 52100 bearing steel.” Metallurgical Transactions 5, no. 4 (1974): 865-874.

[3] Khzouz, Erik Ryan. “Grain growth kinetics in steels.” (2011).

[4] Verhoeven, John D. Steel metallurgy for the non-metallurgist. ASM International, 2007.

The post Rapid Heat Treating with Salt Pots appeared first on Knife Steel Nerds.

Most Important Property for Knife Steel? Q&A

By: Larrin
16 October 2023 at 14:07

New Q&A video with questions from Patreon supporters. Go to Patreon.com/KnifeSteelNerds if you want to support knife steel research.

00:00 Ultra high toughness with ferrite/martensite steels?

05:09 Normalize 80CrV2 with stock removal?

09:18 How much forging to eliminate carbide stringers?

11:16 Will CruForgeV ever come back?

12:25 What is the most important property for knife steel?

15:04 Different CATRA test for cooking knives?

17:22 Does bainite have a place in knives?

20:22 Austenitizing soak time?

23:40 High temperature tempering is bad?

 

The post Most Important Property for Knife Steel? Q&A appeared first on Knife Steel Nerds.

Damasteel Heat Treatment and Properties

By: Larrin
31 August 2023 at 20:49

Thanks to the new Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters! The newly performed research in this article is all paid for through Patreon funds, such as the purchase of expensive Damasteel. Patreon money is only used for knife steel research. Sara Rempelos, Theo N, Christopher Kuehl, Dirk Hoogenbosch, Nick, nats spawnee, Krisztián Szegi, Todd Ellner, Seth V, Jonathan Graham, Ben Secrist, Drew Certain, Scott Armstuts, Ronald Justin Agee, Jim Darnall, Chris G, Farrell K., Bill Behnke, Paige, Luis Hernandez, clockworkfish, Barry Gordon, KarRawr, Ming Lin, Theodore Loach, Matt Bobchin, Flo, J.T. Pouland, Mark Watt, 愷麒 王, and Nickolay Matershev.

Video

Here is the video version of the following information:

Damasteel History

Damasteel was developed and patented by Pelle Billgren and Kay Embretsen [1]. At the time, Billgren worked for the steel company Erasteel in Sweden and he was looking for new uses of their powder metallurgy steel. He connected with bladesmith and Damascus steel maker Embretsen and they worked together to make what eventually was branded as Damasteel. The original material they patented was a combination of Elmax steel and 304L, but by the time it was advertised in the USA in 1996 it had their final combination of RWL34 and PMC27. Damasteel was unique in that it was two different powders which were layered up with no “solid” sheet component. RWL34 is the same composition as ATS34/154CM, and it the name is a tribute to Robert Waldorf “Bob” Loveless who famously introduced those steels to the knife industry. PMC27 is a powder metallurgy version of Sandvik’s 12C27. You can read more about the history of Damasteel, Kay Embretsen, Damascus steels, and knife steel in general in my new book The Story of Knife Steel: Innovators Behind Modern Damascus and Super Steels. Around 2016, the RWL34/PMC27 combination was renamed DS93X. They also have low carbon austenitic stainless products for non-knife applications, and “san-mai” products with a core steel called Damacore. I previously wrote about Damacore in this article. The rest of this article focuses on the DS93X product with RWL34 and PMC27.

Composition and Microstructure

As shown on the chart, the two steels, RWL34 and PMC27, are very similar to their inspirations, ATS34 and 12C27. I get mixed information on whether 154CM or CPM-154 have a small vanadium addition, it has a very limited effect on properties, as there is so much chromium carbide in RWL34 that those act to keep the grain size small. The high chromium content also prevents significant content of vanadium carbides from forming; instead, the vanadium is found in the chromium carbides. There also are no molybdenum carbides to be found (Mo2C or Mo6C). Instead the molybdenum is found in the chromium carbides (M7C3 or M23C6, where M can be chromium, molybdenum, etc.).

RWL34 is the “bright” layer and PMC27 is the “dark” layer in the micrograph above. Because Damasteel is constructured with layering of powder, there can be somewhat diffuse transitions between the two steels, which on a small scale are not as sharp as in pattern-welded Damascus made with solid sheet steels. This does not appear to have any deleterious effect on the “macro” pattern observed in the final material.

12C27 has a very find microstructure without powder metallurgy due to careful composition design and processing. You can read more about how those steels were designed in this article on AEB-L. With powder metallurgy, the PMC27 remains very fine with very small carbides (the bottom material in the micrograph above). RWL34 has much more carbide than PMC27 (roughly 16 vs 4%) with its higher carbon and alloy content but the carbides remain relatively fine due to the powder metallurgy process. You can compare with the microstructure of many other knife steels in this article with many micrographs.

Heat Treatment

There are a surprising number of things to talk about with Damasteel heat treatment, and I have gotten quite a few questions about the datasheet. Until recently the (old) datasheet recommended an 8 minute hold time for 3.2 mm (1/8″), with an increase or decrease of one minute per 0.5 mm. However, a new datasheet was released this year (2023) which recommends a 15 minute hold time instead. The 15 minute hold is more in line with my recommendations.

Heat treatment instructions from the current Damasteel datasheet.

Adjusting by the minute based on thickness makes sense when using a conveyer belt furnace, but for conventional furnaces this is riding the line too close where different sizes of knives (even at the same thickness) can affect the time for the steel to heat up to temperature. Some knifemakers have tried to ride this line in hopes of a finer grain size; however, grain size is much more greatly controlled by temperature than by time. Instead it is more important that the steel sees enough time, to ensure that carbides are dissolved, sufficient carbon is in solution for hardness, and sufficient chromium is in solution for corrosion resistance. The danger of an insufficient soak is much worse, leading to poor hardness, toughness, and corrosion resistance. While the chances of an overly long soak time are quite low. The changes to the steel in terms of transformation and carbides dissolving will “level off” after a certain amount of time and then changes are very slow after that. So I recommend that the soak is “long enough” rather than trying to make it as short as possible.

Example of change in carbon and chromium in solution with austenitizing time for 52100. With short soak times the changes are great, while after sufficient soaking the behavior is more flat.

Another change between the old and new datasheet is the cold treatment recommendation. The old datasheet said to use a cold treatment for heat treatments IV and V, while the new datasheet does not include this instruction, and says only that “deep freezing is not necessary but completes the martensite transformation and increases hardness.” I do not recommend skipping a cold treatment when using the 1080°C/1975°F austenitze, for reasons I will explain shortly. I recommend sticking to 1050°C/1925°F if only quenching to room temperature.

Hardness values are listed for RWL34 and PMC27 for each of the five heat treatment conditions but it does not specify whether this assumes a cold treatment or a room temperature quench. Whether the cold treatment is included has a strong effect on these final values. Another interesting aspect is that rather than giving a final hardness for the “DS93X” Damasteel combination of the two steels, instead it gives hardness values separately for RWL34 and PMC27, presumably so that the knifemaker can select a heat treatment that works for both alloys. Also the PMC27 look rather low when compared with the data on 12C27 from Sandvik [2][3] as shown on the chart I created below. The RWL34 values are much more in line with reported heat treatment data from Hitachi ATS-34, Latrobe 14-4CrMo, and my own experiments with CPM-154.

Tempering chart for Damasteel from their datasheet.

Comparison of Sandvik 12C27 and Damasteel PMC27 heat treatment data.

In my heat treatment experiments I used the same 15 minute austenitize specified in the current datasheet, a plate quench, and tested either with a room temperature quench (no cryo), or a dip in liquid nitrogen (cryo). Rockwell hardness is affected by both steels, and would not only reflect the harder of the two steels. However, when comparing the resulting “composite” hardness of the Damasteel product, the values are basically the same as RWL34 cryo heat treatments and are not similar to PMC27. For example, in a combination of ~62 Rc 1095 and very soft nickel (approximately 8%), the composite hardness value was only ~51.5 Rc. You can read more in the previous article I wrote on experiments of many Damascus steels.

Note also that the hardness drops without cryo above 1925°F, which is why I recommend limiting the austenitize to 1925°F when cryo is not available. This is in line with other heat treatment data from Hitachi and Latrobe on ATS-34, as shown below. When “overaustenitizing,” the hardness drops from excessive retained austenite. Cryo can transform some or all of this retained austenite so that hardness will climb with even higher austenitizing temperatures. Excess retained austenite, even if the final hardness is acceptable (ie 60 Rc), will lead to poor performance, as the retained austenite is very soft and will lead to deformation at lower stresses than would be seen at the same hardness without the retained austenite. The steel will deform as if it is at a significantly lower hardness. You can read more in this article on cryo.

So why does the steel heat treat like RWL34 if roughly half of the steel is PMC27? The reason is because the two steels do not behave the same as when the two are heat treated separately. When combining two steels in Damascus, contrast is achieved after etching because the alloy contents are different, in this case the biggest difference is in the 4% Mo in the RWL34 which makes that steel resist etching better than the PMC27 which creates the bright layer. However, carbon is a very small “interstitial” element (between the iron atoms), which means it diffuses very rapidly. During the forge welding and forging process the carbon equalizes between the two steels, changing the heat treatment behavior of the two steels. It is slightly more complicated than this because some carbide will still be present in the CPM-154 even at a high forging temperatures such as 2150°F. So the carbon that will equalize will be the carbon “in solution” for the two steels at the forge welding and forging temperature. Using ThermoCalc for that temperature I estimate that RWL34 loses about 0.1% carbon while PMC27 gains about the same amount, resulting in the RWL34 having 0.95% carbon and PMC27 having 0.7% carbon. In this case, the resulting “carbon in solution” of the two steels during austenitizing ends up being very similar to the original RWL34, and thus the hardness values of PMC27 on its own are basically irrelevant to the heat treatment. This would make the PMC27 roughly the same composition as AEB-L, which also has its peak austenitizing temperature at 1925°F without cryo and 1975-2000°F with cryo (see this article). Instead it would be better if the datasheet just showed the resulting hardness data for heat treating the “DS93X” combination of the two steels. Below I have shown a heat treatment summary from my own experiments:

So with 1/8″ material, a 15 minute austenitize works well, thicker material may necessitate longer hold times. Using 1900-1925°F is good if not using cryo, with cryo you can austenitize as high as about 2000°F for higher hardness. Temper to desired hardness.

Edge Retention

The edge retention of Damasteel compared with other Damascus patterns was previously shown in this article on Damascus performance. The Damasteel did very well, comparable to “mid-tier” wear resistance steels such as CPM-3V or CPM-154. We used a heat treatment of 1950°F for 15 minutes, plate quench, liquid nitrogen cryo, and temper at 400°F. Read more about CATRA edge retention testing in this article.

High alloy Damascus combinations tested for edge retention with CATRA

A giant chart of other steels to compare against

The edge retention was tested with the “Hugin” pattern which is essentially a “ladder” pattern which puts a wave into the steel. We found ladder patterned Damascus to have better edge retention than “random” straight layers as shown on the ApexUltra/L6 chart.

Damasteel “Hugin” pattern CATRA coupon

The wavy appearance created in the “edge” of a ladder pattern bar (this is not Damasteel)

ApexUltra/L6 Damascus showed better edge retention with a ladder pattern

However, you will notice that the layers of the Hugin pattern flatten out as they approach the edge, which is not because the patterning doesn’t reach the center of the bar, but rather because of the shape of the initial billet which are layered with powder prior to forging flat (notice how the layers also flatten out as they approach the spine of the test knife). This results in layers parallel to the edges while looking more typical of layered steel in the center. Thus we were somewhat surprised that the edge retention was identical to the ladder patterned steel we tested of AEB-L/154CM, which are nearly identical steels. Could the Damasteel have even better edge retention if the layers “crisscrossed” the edge like traditional pattern-welded Damascus? To test this we made a new coupon using a “dense twist” pattern which does have layers crossing the edge with a higher density.

Damasteel “dense twist” CATRA coupon

Damasteel “dense twist” cross-section

However, when I tested the dense twist the result was largely the same as Hugin. If there was a true increase in performance it is very small. In either case, the edge retention of the Damasteel is very close to CPM-154 (the same as RWL34), despite the presence of a large amount of PMC27 with much less wear resistance (similar to AEB-L on the chart below). Therefore the ladder patterning leads to a significant boost in edge retention.

Thus it appears that the effect of the layers is minimal, and most of the effect comes from the change in shape of the microstructure instead. There is still directionality to the microstructure, especially carbide banding, which would have its shape changed through the ladder patterning. Below is an image of carbide banding:

Carbide banding in high speed steel (rolling direction is vertical) [4]

This carbide banding theory could be confirmed by testing CATRA edge retention of a single steel which was given ladder patterning. We effectively did this test already with the 3125 layer AEB-L/154CM where layers were no longer visible. We also tested layer counts of 25, 125, and 625. However, regardless of the layer count the edge retention was the same, as shown in the chart below:

The reason the layers are not visible is not simply because the layers got so thin they cannot be viewed. When the layers become thin enough, the larger alloying elements (not only carbon) will equalize between the steel leading to a roughly consistent composition throughout the steel in terms of molybdenum and chromium. No pattern was apparent in the 3125 layer steel.

3125 layer AEB-L/154CM steel with no apparent layers.

Toughness

I also tested the toughness of the Hugin pattern Damasteel with two heat treatments:

  1. 1950°F for 15 minutes, plate quench, liquid nitrogen cryo, 400°F temper (~61 Rc)
  2. 1975°F for 15 minutes, plate quench, liquid nitrogen cryo, 300°F temper (~64.0 Rc)

The toughness of Damasteel was close to the RWL34 on its own, with only a small boost due to the tougher PMC27 (compare with AEB-L on the chart). This was similar to other Damascus steels that we tested, where toughness was largely controlled by the “less tough” of the two steels. In our initial tests of the dense twist patter, we got a surprising amount of variability when compared with the Hugin pattern:

Because of this unexpected behavior, I made four more coupons and retested, and this time the behavior was more consistent. The average toughness did not change that much, however. It appears that when compensated for hardness the toughness was roughly the same between the dense twist and the Hugin pattern.

Summary and Conclusions

Damasteel DS93X is a high quality powder metallurgy stainless Damascus. It showed good toughness and edge retention in our testing. There are a couple issues with the datasheet and I have slightly different recommendations for heat treating, but their most recent datasheet did change their austenitizing time recommendation in what I think is a positive change. For 1/8″ material and thinner I recommend a 15 minute austenitize from 1900-2000°F (1035-1095°C), with a max of 1925°F (1050°C) if not using cryo after the quench. Temper to desired hardness with a minimum of 300°F/150°C. I didn’t test tempering temperatures higher than 400°F to see when tempered martensite embrittlement happens. Generally a 350-400°F (175-205°C) temper gives more balanced properties than maxing out the hardness with 300°F/150°C.


[1] Billgren, Per, and Kaj Embretsen. “Method relating to the manufacturing of a composite metal product.” U.S. Patent 5,815,790, issued September 29, 1998.

[2] https://www.alleima.com/en/products/strip-steel/strip-products/knife-steel/hardening-guide/hardening-programs/alleima-12c27-batch-hardening/

[3] https://www.alleima.com/en/products/strip-steel/strip-products/knife-steel/hardening-guide/hardening-programs/alleima-12c27-batch-hardening-deep-freezing-70c-95f/

[4] Mesquita, Rafael Agnelli, and Celso Antonio Barbosa. “High-speed steels produced by conventional casting, spray forming and powder metallurgy.” In Materials science forum, vol. 498, pp. 244-250. Trans Tech Publications Ltd, 2005.

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